'21 Generation 7 Car news

wi_racefan said:
If anything I think it should go the opposite way. Why allow a monopoly of cars for one team? I thought the whole point of lowering costs and standard parts was to make it easier for new owners?

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No.
 
wi_racefan said:
I think its possibly one of the worst ideas you could have to have one of the teams competing in the sport produce a spec chassis. You realize you're just funneling more money into that team to allow them to get further ahead of the competition?

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A spec chassis may allow more manufactures in,...
 
Acs said:
It's no different than HMS building engines for all the chevy teams, or Roush Yates building all the Ford engines for teams. Thankfully there's gonna be a spending cap so that extra revenue stream shouldn't translate into more speed directly.
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You actually think a spending cap would work. In a sport that is mostly parts and pieces with team owners owning several businesses it will never work. For example say RCR purchases engines from ECR and nascar says you cant spend more than 3 million a year on engines. Well ok ECR could spend 8 million a year developing, testing and producing engines but only charge RCR 2.5 million for the engines and wow look we didn't exceed our budget. Same thing with every other person on the team you could be limited to a salary that the race team pays them, but they could be paid to be a consultant for another business for the race team owner. IMO it will just never work for racing.

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wi_racefan said:
You actually think a spending cap would work. In a sport that is mostly parts and pieces with team owners owning several businesses it will never work. For example say RCR purchases engines from ECR and nascar says you cant spend more than 3 million a year on engines. Well ok ECR could spend 8 million a year developing, testing and producing engines but only charge RCR 2.5 million for the engines and wow look we didn't exceed our budget. Same thing with every other person on the team you could be limited to a salary that the race team pays them, but they could be paid to be a consultant for another business for the race team owner. IMO it will just never work for racing.

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I get your point, but for an FYI Nascar is forcing them to reduce costs from the top down by restricting how many engines they can use in a season. The same model can be used for other parts and pieces. It's a forced cost reduction instead of a voluntary one. Teams spend all kinds of money on streamlined front end suspension parts, braking systems, front spindles,different ones for every track, super light drive shafts, most of it is very expensive for just a tic or two of overall speed. Average racing fan in the stands could care less. As soon as a new part is built, engineers are hard at work trying to make the next one better. Standardized parts are a type of spending cap and the average fan won't know the difference on the track.
 
wi_racefan said:
I think its possibly one of the worst ideas you could have to have one of the teams competing in the sport produce a spec chassis. You realize you're just funneling more money into that team to allow them to get further ahead of the competition?

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This. If we're going spec on many critical areas, it needs to be provided by a neutral third party, if nothing else then just for appearance's sake.
 
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With the news about NASCAR considering street courses coming out and also the fact that NASCAR took notes from the V8 Supercars with the Gen 7 car. I wonder if the Gen 7 car was designed using principles from the original L-R car, which was designed for street courses, and was designed to have the manuverability needed to produce good quality races at the street courses.
 
DewChaser988 said:
With the news about NASCAR considering street courses coming out and also the fact that NASCAR took notes from the V8 Supercars with the Gen 7 car. I wonder if the Gen 7 car was designed using principles from the original L-R car, which was designed for street courses, and was designed to have the manuverability needed to produce good quality races at the street courses.
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IRS turned the Gen 7 into a world class road race car. Rumor is that the rear tires are two inches wider than they are now. Supercars run a 5 liter engine which might be similar. Supercars run a big honking set of wings on the rear which I doubt Nascar would use for safety reasons. I think they are similar now FWIW. Supercars are more of a road race design because that is all they race on. Nascar will have to make compromises to run both styles I would guess. I wonder how much lighter they will be with composite body work or will Nascar add more weight to make up the difference
 
StandOnIt said:
IRS turned the Gen 7 into a world class road race car. Rumor is that the rear tires are two inches wider than they are now. Supercars run a 5 liter engine which might be similar. Supercars run a big honking set of wings on the rear which I doubt Nascar would use for safety reasons. I think they are similar now FWIW. Supercars are more of a road race design because that is all they race on. Nascar will have to make compromises to run both styles I would guess. I wonder how much lighter they will be with composite body work or will Nascar add more weight to make up the difference
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I'm sure Dallara will be able to figure it out. They manage to do both ovals and road courses for Indycar just fine
 
DewChaser988 said:
I'm sure Dallara will be able to figure it out. They manage to do both ovals and road courses for Indycar just fine
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nothing in stone about Dallara, it sounds like they are taking bids on a lot of it. JGR is rumored to be one of the chassis builders bidding for the job.
 
What I would really like to see with this new car is 3 things

1) if they do a common chassis it's made by a independent 3rd party

2) a car that looks symmetrical left to right and isn't all twisted

3) a car that goes down the track straight. When a car is coming directly towards you you shouldn't be able to read the right rear quarter panel

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There was one design element from the X-3 prototype that I was interested in. It was the opening in front of the car that would allow air under the car so that the car couldn't be sealed to the track. I wonder why that design element didn't make it into the Gen 7 cars.
 
wi_racefan said:
What I would really like to see with this new car is 3 things

1) if they do a common chassis it's made by a independent 3rd party

2) a car that looks symmetrical left to right and isn't all twisted

3) a car that goes down the track straight. When a car is coming directly towards you you shouldn't be able to read the right rear quarter panel

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I agree 100%. As far as I'm concerned, NASCAR made a HUGE mistake when they started to allow asymmetrical cars, and I could never figure WHY they would allow it. Even more than the CoT, mid 2000's versions were the stupidest looking cars to ever run NASCAR races.
 
wi_racefan said:
What I would really like to see with this new car is 3 things

1) if they do a common chassis it's made by a independent 3rd party

2) a car that looks symmetrical left to right and isn't all twisted

3) a car that goes down the track straight. When a car is coming directly towards you you shouldn't be able to read the right rear quarter panel

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I agree. I'll go even farther and say that a disinterested 3rd party should make all of the standardized parts with no OEM influences. Number two and three happened during Brian's reign. I continually wonder where or what direction Jim France is going in regards to the next version of the car. It's his baby. I like a lot of what I hear, but will it make the final cut.
 
Formerjackman said:
I agree 100%. As far as I'm concerned, NASCAR made a HUGE mistake when they started to allow asymmetrical cars, and I could never figure WHY they would allow it. Even more than the CoT, mid 2000's versions were the stupidest looking cars to ever run NASCAR races.
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yeah me too. That was the era of pretty unrestricted aero improvements and very aero dependent cars. But like everything else, there were people who liked that form of racing, probably most were Gordon/Evernham fans
 
Mispeedway15 said:
I do like the potential future electrification of the sport. While I love the roar of the engines, we’re really only 4-5 years from a huge change in cars. I honestly believe that most of us (unless buying a truck) have 1-2 car purchases left in our lives of an internal combustion engine.

Trust me I’ve seen CAD designs for cars in the late 2020s
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Racing-forum dot com
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Mispeedway15 said:
I do like the potential future electrification of the sport. While I love the roar of the engines, we’re really only 4-5 years from a huge change in cars. I honestly believe that most of us (unless buying a truck) have 1-2 car purchases left in our lives of an internal combustion engine.

Trust me I’ve seen CAD designs for cars in the late 2020s
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As long as you can race the electric cars on dirt tracks, I'm fine with it.
 
I find it hard to believe they can buy a chassis cheaper than build one. Just like the COT had to be certified seems to me Nascar could just release a chassis build sheet/blueprint and the team build to spec. The teams already have the workers and equipment. How is moving the build and repair of chassis outside going to actually save money? If a current Nascar team is going to build ALL the Chassis going to need quite an assembly line. I suppose it may be a lateral move for workers...
 
KTMLew01 said:
I find it hard to believe they can buy a chassis cheaper than build one. Just like the COT had to be certified seems to me Nascar could just release a chassis build sheet/blueprint and the team build to spec. The teams already have the workers and equipment. How is moving the build and repair of chassis outside going to actually save money? If a current Nascar team is going to build ALL the Chassis going to need quite an assembly line. I suppose it may be a lateral move for workers...
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It's cheaper because your taking away their ability to spend money on doing R&D on the chassis. The problem with the current one is there's certain defined points, but there's a lot that can be done between said points

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wi_racefan said:
It's cheaper because your taking away their ability to spend money on doing R&D on the chassis. The problem with the current one is there's certain defined points, but there's a lot that can be done between said points

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I suspect that pretty exotic metallurgy is involved also. Certain mixes of steel can bend and flex at certain rates depending on the forces involved. Things like spindles, trailing arms, rear end housings etc.could all benefit to increase handling. Buku engineering money could be spent on that sort of thing to gain fractions of a second.
 
KTMLew01 said:
I find it hard to believe they can buy a chassis cheaper than build one. Just like the COT had to be certified seems to me Nascar could just release a chassis build sheet/blueprint and the team build to spec. The teams already have the workers and equipment. How is moving the build and repair of chassis outside going to actually save money? If a current Nascar team is going to build ALL the Chassis going to need quite an assembly line. I suppose it may be a lateral move for workers...
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Ask Henry Ford about that.
 
I agree that it would a conflict of interest, the one way to get around that is that every chassis goes to NASCAR , and the teams get them from NASCAR, including JGR.
 
wi_racefan said:
It's cheaper because your taking away their ability to spend money on doing R&D on the chassis. The problem with the current one is there's certain defined points, but there's a lot that can be done between said points

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One blueprint. Just like Dalara or whomever you want to choose. I don't include ANY bolt on parts Minus maybe body mounts as "chassis". Here is a bare chassis. Let the team build their chassis but must purchase all suspension brakes, etc from a vendor. Nascar would approve X vendor product.
chassisbare_grande.jpg
 
StandOnIt said:
I suspect that pretty exotic metallurgy is involved also. Certain mixes of steel can bend and flex at certain rates depending on the forces involved. Things like spindles, trailing arms, rear end housings etc.could all benefit to increase handling. Buku engineering money could be spent on that sort of thing to gain fractions of a second.
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The chassis is steel? Hard to spend too much extra on exotic steel that they couldn't test for. Suspension, brakes, etc would be purchased from outside source would have to match XXX spec. Spec is spec. You fail spec you get a DNF. No points. No money. Make it hurt for "cheating".
 
I'm certain someone will come in screaming THAT'S NOT A NASCAR!!! Obviously. The point is to see how the design and work has to go together. Unless they go the direction of IndyCar with a "tub" then exotic metals shouldn't be a concern. I'm assuming the chassis will resemble this car.
 
I was talking about today's car. It is possible to engineer steel that can stretch under loads and return to spec. Very handy to get a touch more rear camber or a trailing arm that can deflect for a bit more rear steer. I don't know how close they check that kinda of stuff now but a vendor built chassis would eliminate that if it is happening
 
KTMLew01 said:
One blueprint. Just like Dalara or whomever you want to choose. I don't include ANY bolt on parts Minus maybe body mounts as "chassis". Here is a bare chassis. Let the team build their chassis but must purchase all suspension brakes, etc from a vendor. Nascar would approve X vendor product.
chassisbare_grande.jpg
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I think you're forgetting the group you're dealing with in the nascar garage. For example even a blue print has a tolerance on every dimension. I guarantee you teams will be going through every one of those dimensions and test to see on which side of the tolerance is better. It's no different than what's going on with the bodies right now. Teams are pushing the tolerance to the max for performance gains.

Remember this is the same group of people that were cutting slits in the wraps and figuring out the ideal spot for the Jackman to accidentally "bump" into the car

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wi_racefan said:
I think you're forgetting the group you're dealing with in the nascar garage. For example even a blue print has a tolerance on every dimension. I guarantee you teams will be going through every one of those dimensions and test to see on which side of the tolerance is better. It's no different than what's going on with the bodies right now. Teams are pushing the tolerance to the max for performance gains.

Remember this is the same group of people that were cutting slits in the wraps and figuring out the ideal spot for the Jackman to accidentally "bump" into the car

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Don't forget about the flared out skirt.
 
SpeedPagan said:
Don't forget about the flared out skirt.
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I forgot about that one. How to properly enter the banking of the track to bend that out exiting pit road.

The other one I loved was how much to swerve the car right at the end of a race to reset the rear end of the car

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wi_racefan said:
I forgot about that one. How to properly enter the banking of the track to bend that out exiting pit road.

The other one I loved was how much to swerve the car right at the end of a race to reset the rear end of the car

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Yep, it doesn't matter how "spec" you make the cars, the teams will always find a loophole or a gray area to play in. Which is what my dad did when my brother was racing go-karts. Before the start of each season, my dad would go over the rule book and see what he could get away with.
 
wi_racefan said:
I think you're forgetting the group you're dealing with in the nascar garage. For example even a blue print has a tolerance on every dimension. I guarantee you teams will be going through every one of those dimensions and test to see on which side of the tolerance is better. It's no different than what's going on with the bodies right now. Teams are pushing the tolerance to the max for performance gains.

Remember this is the same group of people that were cutting slits in the wraps and figuring out the ideal spot for the Jackman to accidentally "bump" into the car

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The chassis has to go thru the R&D center now. They will inspect them and I assume mark the suspension mounting points to watch for modification. I completely discount some previous suggestions about 'flexible chassis" tubing being used. That works on dirt but not so much on asphalt for 4-500 miles races when the car has to be raced again.
 
KTMLew01 said:
So I guess any rules are a waste of time. Cause they gonna cheat anyway.
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I'm just saying, never underestimate human ingenuity. A team will always find a way to cheat to gain that edge over the competition. Even when they started laser scanning the chassis, teams were experimenting with what colors to use on the wrap because the prevailing theory at the time was that the scanner couldn't read black paint.
 
SpeedPagan said:
I'm just saying, never underestimate human ingenuity. A team will always find a way to cheat to gain that edge over the competition. Even when they started laser scanning the chassis, teams were experimenting with what colors to use on the wrap because the prevailing theory at the time was that the scanner couldn't read black paint.
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We have a fundamental difference on what we call chassis. They inspect the CHASSIS at the R&D center BEFORE the body is hung. But...whatever. Do you think IndyCar teams are modifying the tubs (chassis) to gain speed? My assumption is that would be akin to soaking tires or engine mods to cheat the displacement. You do that; YOU OUT!
 
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