'21 Generation 7 Car news

The whole tire thing is stupid. Goodyear builds a fine tire. They set a conservative minimum. Someone goes below, gets grip, and the tire survives. Somebody else does the same thing, and it doesn't. Instead of owning the low pressure, the team blames Goodyear. Nobody ever thanks Goodyear after a race. Everybody blames Goodyear regardless of whether or not the failure was within their control. Nobody wants a tire war. ....and the beat goes on.
I don't think it's stupid. It think there's something justifiable about the tire frustration.

Teams have always gone below the conservative minimum, right? It's more of an issue now.

I also think minimal fall off is an issue as well. Tires aren't wearing and slowing the field down..instead they're wearing and exploding.

I think this is sort of the culmination of all the tire stuff.

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Like I posted in one of these threads before I think if you gave them a tire with significant fall off teams wouldn't mess with pressure near as much. You'd manage tires and that would be your advantage. Now tires don't fall off so you have to try some

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Simulations only tell a part of the story, a testing of model is still necessary to see how it performs in real world application.

I still think transparency is important and drivers should be able to participate in a ZOOM call or maybe attend in person. Maybe have some representatives discuss what changes are being made and why they are being made. I think that's all the drivers are asking for, so I think they should be able to the work that has gone into what is being done.
 
I don't think it's stupid. It think there's something justifiable about the tire frustration.

Teams have always gone below the conservative minimum, right? It's more of an issue now.

I also think minimal fall off is an issue as well. Tires aren't wearing and slowing the field down..instead they're wearing and exploding.

I think this is sort of the culmination of all the tire stuff.

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Goodyear is made up of engineers. The engineers tell the teams what the tire can handle. The teams get greedy. The tires fail. How do you blame the manufacturing company? I think the line between a durable and safe tire and fall off is extremely hard to calculate. We did that back in the day with a tire war, and I haven't ever heard anybody say that they wanted to go back to that. You are asking Goodyear to produce a tire that will survive under conditions that it isn't engineered to do so simply because these guys want to beat each other. I will promise you that every damn crew chief knows how much air to put in that tire to ensure that it doesn't fail. Those guys will get their asses kicked because somebody will always take the chance.

At the end of the day, this is really easy. Mandate pressure sensors and Goodyear sets the pressures. Tell the teams that if they **** with them, they will get hammered....never heard of anybody screwing with the ECU since we went EFI.
 
The whole tire thing is stupid. Goodyear builds a fine tire. They set a conservative minimum. Someone goes below, gets grip, and the tire survives. Somebody else does the same thing, and it doesn't. Instead of owning the low pressure, the team blames Goodyear. Nobody ever thanks Goodyear after a race. Everybody blames Goodyear regardless of whether or not the failure was within their control. Nobody wants a tire war. ....and the beat goes on.
Not that cut and dry. Chris Buescher said this week that they've experience the same tire failures even being above the Goodyear minimum.
 
Like I posted in one of these threads before I think if you gave them a tire with significant fall off teams wouldn't mess with pressure near as much. You'd manage tires and that would be your advantage. Now tires don't fall off so you have to try some

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I don't get it. Even with a softer tire they will still try to maximize grip with lower pressures.
 
I don't see how Next Gen Version 2.0 for next year would be a big financial setback for the teams. Certainly the bigger teams turned over all or most of their chassis every year when racing Gen 6 and prior. Some of the smaller teams with less funding ran year-old chassis, so maybe they were hoping for a stagnant design to keep that strategy going.

The financial savings Next Gen was supposed to produce came from two main sources... (a) a fleet of just seven chassis per car number, versus twice or triple that amount previously, and (b) each chassis costs a fraction as much because of its standard design and standard components. I don't recall any discussion of savings from item (c) each chassis will race for multiple years.

I believe there is solid evidence that the new car has performed pretty much as expected in the cost savings area. That's one big reason why charter values have doubled in the last year.
Next Gen 2.0 means that every team's inventory of clips, or any other component that is changed, turns into scrap metal. Rule changes always incur cost for teams for that reason.
 
Somewhere in another tweet up towards the top of this page Marks said his parts expenses have overshot the budget so far. Whether that’s due to general supply chain issues or what, I’m not sure. Could definitely be a variety of factors there.

I think the increase in charter market asking values is at least in part because of expectations for the upcoming TV deal is supposed to be both more valuable in total and shared more with the teams compared to the current distribution - a larger slice of a larger pie. The guaranteed annual revenues associated with each charter should increase quite a bit, so long as things go according to plan.
That's exactly what it is. Charter values increasing has nothing to do with the cost of the spec parts. It's about securing an asset. And the reason why charters will continue to be justifyable purchased at higher and higher prices is because it's like buying property. You're not relying on the charter level purse payouts to make back that investment, you're holding an asset that you can always put on the market to make your money back regardless, and likely profit from unless the sport literally collapses which isn't going to happen.
 
Well it's clear that nascar is no longer handing out any of those secret fines for talking bad about them anymore

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That's exactly what it is. Charter values increasing has nothing to do with the cost of the spec parts. It's about securing an asset. And the reason why charters will continue to be justifyable purchased at higher and higher prices is because it's like buying property. You're not relying on the charter level purse payouts to make back that investment, you're holding an asset that you can always put on the market to make your money back regardless, and likely profit from unless the sport literally collapses which isn't going to happen.

You sound like that famous quote from Will Rogers about the stock market...

Will Rogers: Making money in the stock market is simple. You buy stock. When it goes up in value, you sell it. Simple.

Set Up Man: What if it doesn't go up?

Will Rogers: Then you don't buy it!

Yes, a charter is an asset, like owning a piece of property. And the market value of the property is determined by supply and demand. Demand for charters is based on the economic attractiveness of owning and operating a Nascar cup team. Future demand will reflect a wide array of factors. Certainly the outlook for the next TV deal is one major factor in the projected revenue stream. "A bigger slice of a bigger pie" seems to be the current thinking that's baked into current charter asking prices. That will work out exactly as forecast, or better, or worse.

Operating costs are a huge factor as well. You seem to recognize this in post #5887 above, then in post #5888 you claim costs don't matter. Which is it? You can't have it both ways.

Of course costs matter. Scraping some year-old chassis components is more costly than reusing them for a second year. My point is, this scrappage cost is not new, it has been going on for years. Before Next Gen, major teams have been building 15 to 20 new chassis per year. Now they are building seven, and each one costs less than previously. That is a very large improvement in the cost structure, even if all seven chassis are scraped at year-end.

To say the operating cost structure doesn't affect charter market values is naive and ridiculous. There are statements out there - I can't vouch for the accuracy and neither can you, but the teams have reams of actual data - statements that imply Next Gen has reduced the cost of fielding a competitive front-running car by $5 to $7 million per year excluding cost of the driver. That's big... really big.

The current TV money is $820 million per year for 10 years, starting lower and increasing each year. It may be ~$1 billion now, toward the end of that 10-year cycle. The 36 chartered teams collectively receive 25%, so call it ~$7 million per charter. Improving that number by $5 to $7 million would also be big... really big.

These are the two biggest factors in rising charter market values.
 
At the end of the day, this is really easy. Mandate pressure sensors and Goodyear sets the pressures. Tell the teams that if they **** with them, they will get hammered....never heard of anybody screwing with the ECU since we went EFI.
Just watched a car get penalized for less-than-minimum pressure in the IMSA race at Road Atlanta. That's a series that doesn't have deep pockets and a fat TV contract.
 
Goodyear is made up of engineers. The engineers tell the teams what the tire can handle. The teams get greedy. The tires fail. How do you blame the manufacturing company? I think the line between a durable and safe tire and fall off is extremely hard to calculate. We did that back in the day with a tire war, and I haven't ever heard anybody say that they wanted to go back to that. You are asking Goodyear to produce a tire that will survive under conditions that it isn't engineered to do so simply because these guys want to beat each other. I will promise you that every damn crew chief knows how much air to put in that tire to ensure that it doesn't fail. Those guys will get their asses kicked because somebody will always take the chance.

At the end of the day, this is really easy. Mandate pressure sensors and Goodyear sets the pressures. Tell the teams that if they **** with them, they will get hammered....never heard of anybody screwing with the ECU since we went EFI.
You might be able to do that if it were solely a tire pressure issue. This doesn't seem to be the case. Corey Lajoie came right out and said that the weekend they wrecked 2 cars from blown tires (1 in practice and 1 in the race) it wasn't a pressure issue it was a camber setting issue.

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You sound like that famous quote from Will Rogers about the stock market...

Will Rogers: Making money in the stock market is simple. You buy stock. When it goes up in value, you sell it. Simple.

Set Up Man: What if it doesn't go up?

Will Rogers: Then you don't buy it!

Yes, a charter is an asset, like owning a piece of property. And the market value of the property is determined by supply and demand. Demand for charters is based on the economic attractiveness of owning and operating a Nascar cup team. Future demand will reflect a wide array of factors. Certainly the outlook for the next TV deal is one major factor in the projected revenue stream. "A bigger slice of a bigger pie" seems to be the current thinking that's baked into current charter asking prices. That will work out exactly as forecast, or better, or worse.

Operating costs are a huge factor as well. You seem to recognize this in post #5887 above, then in post #5888 you claim costs don't matter. Which is it? You can't have it both ways.

Of course costs matter. Scraping some year-old chassis components is more costly than reusing them for a second year. My point is, this scrappage cost is not new, it has been going on for years. Before Next Gen, major teams have been building 15 to 20 new chassis per year. Now they are building seven, and each one costs less than previously. That is a very large improvement in the cost structure, even if all seven chassis are scraped at year-end.

To say the operating cost structure doesn't affect charter market values is naive and ridiculous. There are statements out there - I can't vouch for the accuracy and neither can you, but the teams have reams of actual data - statements that imply Next Gen has reduced the cost of fielding a competitive front-running car by $5 to $7 million per year excluding cost of the driver. That's big... really big.

The current TV money is $820 million per year for 10 years, starting lower and increasing each year. It may be ~$1 billion now, toward the end of that 10-year cycle. The 36 chartered teams collectively receive 25%, so call it ~$7 million per charter. Improving that number by $5 to $7 million would also be big... really big.

These are the two biggest factors in rising charter market values.
It's naive of you to think that the cost savings have fully panned out as advertised. Owners such as Justin Marks have stated multiple times that the costs are higher still, not lower, for teams with the NextGen car. An example of this would be that the floor and diffuser cost $15,000 per. So yes, now they can replace a clip more easily, but there are entirely new and expensive components being destroyed often now that were never a factor before either.

Also, teams are ordering large quantities of the spec parts and measuring them to find the best pieces in the batch, just as I predicted here many moons ago, which is defeating the purpose of them from a cost savings standpoint.
 
Also, teams are ordering large quantities of the spec parts and measuring them to find the best pieces in the batch, just as I predicted here many moons ago, which is defeating the purpose of them from a cost savings standpoint.

It's funny because I said teams would do things like that as well and several people on here thought it was crazy. Everything is built with a tolerance one side of the tolerance is always better

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It's naive of you to think that the cost savings have fully panned out as advertised. Owners such as Justin Marks have stated multiple times that the costs are higher still, not lower, for teams with the NextGen car. An example of this would be that the floor and diffuser cost $15,000 per. So yes, now they can replace a clip more easily, but there are entirely new and expensive components being destroyed often now that were never a factor before either.

Also, teams are ordering large quantities of the spec parts and measuring them to find the best pieces in the batch, just as I predicted here many moons ago, which is defeating the purpose of them from a cost savings standpoint.
That isn’t what Marks said. He said his parts costs are over what he budgeted for ... not more than they were in the past. Undertray damage doesn’t seem to be a thing. Diffuser yes but that’s a separate component.

Which teams are ordering multiples of pieces?
 
It's funny because I said teams would do things like that as well and several people on here thought it was crazy. Everything is built with a tolerance one side of the tolerance is always better

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It is crazy.
 
Have you every checked or inspected mass produced parts? There's a reason why people do things like that.

I know most all teams are currently buying the steering racks and taking them apart and replacing o-rings and seals before they even use them.

Yes, I’m sure they are.

They are not buying large quantities of upper/lower control arms and hubs looking for something because it’s a pointless exercise. They can’t change suspension pickup points on the chassis (the basic reason for multiple chassis updates over multiple years) and they have to use adjustment slugs to mount those components. Each slug has 3 holes in it. Those holes limit adjustment. Everybody has the same choices. A few thousandths of an inch difference from one Next Gen hub or control arm to another is meaningless.
 
That isn’t what Marks said. He said his parts costs are over what he budgeted for ... not more than they were in the past. Undertray damage doesn’t seem to be a thing. Diffuser yes but that’s a separate component.

Which teams are ordering multiples of pieces?
I'm not talking about the tweet, I'm referring to interviews he's done in podcasts such as Dinner With Racers this year.
 
Yes, I’m sure they are.

They are not buying large quantities of upper/lower control arms and hubs looking for something because it’s a pointless exercise. They can’t change suspension pickup points on the chassis (the basic reason for multiple chassis updates over multiple years) and they have to use adjustment slugs to mount those components. Each slug has 3 holes in it. Those holes limit adjustment. Everybody has the same choices. A few thousandths of an inch difference from one Next Gen hub or control arm to another is meaningless.
It's not a pointless exercise at all. Those three adjustment holes have a tolerance band. No two parts are manufactured *exactly* the same.
 
It's funny because I said teams would do things like that as well and several people on here thought it was crazy. Everything is built with a tolerance one side of the tolerance is always better

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Exactly. This forum collectively speaking, for people that allegedly know racing or have short track experience, rarely think like racers. Justin Marks, a Cup team owner, has confirmed these very things on Dinner With Racers and the Dale Jr Download, and it should come as no surprise to anybody.

As for the floors that get damaged, that one comes from Cup team owner Denny Hamlin.

I don't know what's so hard to believe about this stuff for some people. It's literally public knowledge at this point unless you have your head in the sand.
 
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The holes in the slugs are approx 3/4” apart center to center. A mis-manufactured clevis
or pair of slugs that are out by a few thousandths of an inch would have no measurable setup effect.
 
It's not a pointless exercise at all. Those three adjustment holes have a tolerance band. No two parts are manufactured *exactly* the same.
They could have a tolerance stack if they weren't dimensioned properly which is almost impossible. That assembly is made to be adjusted anyway so the tolerances in those pieces aren't that important. Teams can dial in within reason what they want out of those pieces for caster, camber etc.
 
They could have a tolerance stack if they weren't dimensioned properly which is almost impossible. That assembly is made to be adjusted anyway so the tolerances in those pieces aren't that important. Teams can dial in within reason what they want out of those pieces for caster, camber etc.
You can't see how an assembly that is designed to be adjusted could offer a larger or small window of total adjustment based on tolerancing from assembly to assembly?
 
I wonder if he had any suggestions?


This is big. Really big IMO. Talking **** about the sanctioning body--especially when one of your drivers is also an owner makes me wonder what the hell is going on.
 
You might be able to do that if it were solely a tire pressure issue. This doesn't seem to be the case. Corey Lajoie came right out and said that the weekend they wrecked 2 cars from blown tires (1 in practice and 1 in the race) it wasn't a pressure issue it was a camber setting issue.

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Hand in hand. Require a camber setting. Check it in tech. It's just so stupid. Goodyear builds a tire, and teams are pissed when it blows because they abused the **** out of it. If I do that kind of **** to my Toyota 4 Runner, and then whine to Yokohama, what do you think they would say? Stock car racing.
 
Larry Mac on race hub just said today that the test this week Nascar has had scheduled since the spring will focus on crash testing the rear of the car. Teams are invited to be in Charlotte this Saturday to go over the test results.
Nascar did a similar test on the front end by going wide open down pit road and crashing into the wall at approximately 145 MPH. Changes were made to the car after the crash. Two hard front end crashes since with minor injuries to the drivers.
 
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