'21 Generation 7 Car news

SlicedBread22

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It's nice seeing some positive feedback from fans.. I knew you guys wouldn't be freaking out like the "fans" on other platforms.. people are being absolutely ridiculous about this one lug nut thing.
 

Formerjackman

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sequential shifting....
I don't like that simply because it reduces the skill level required. If you want to find out who can REALLY drive on a road course, go back to the old school BW Super T10s and Muncie M22s. One miss-timed downshift with those and your day is over.
 

DanicaFreak

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I don't like that simply because it reduces the skill level required. If you want to find out who can REALLY drive on a road course, go back to the old school BW Super T10s and Muncie M22s. One miss-timed downshift with those and your day is over.
I actually like the idea of REAL shifting FJ.,
 

Charlie Spencer

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Formerjackman

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The primary question I have on any any of this is are we changing things to make the product better, are we changing things to please manufacturers or owners, or are we changing things because we are trying to impress someone. I fully understand the need to make the manufacturers happy, but at some point THEY need to be realistic too. These are RACE CARS, not street cars. That's why they don't have cruise control, car stereos and air conditioning. It's also why they don't need sequential gear boxes and generic hybrid devices any more than they need anti-lock brakes and traction control. If you want to see the best of the best excel at the highest level of the sport, you can't keep dumbing the required skill level down.
 

DanicaFreak

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So basically a driver would no longer be able to skip a gear, either accidentally or intentionally? What about when first gear has crapped out and the driver wants to leave pit road in second? How does this affect coasting under caution to save gas? Can the driver go from third or fourth to neutral and back?
gotta be a way to engage neutral, or start from 2nd.
 

Ventisca

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The primary question I have on any any of this is are we changing things to make the product better, are we changing things to please manufacturers or owners, or are we changing things because we are trying to impress someone. I fully understand the need to make the manufacturers happy, but at some point THEY need to be realistic too. These are RACE CARS, not street cars. That's why they don't have cruise control, car stereos and air conditioning. It's also why they don't need sequential gear boxes and generic hybrid devices any more than they need anti-lock brakes and traction control. If you want to see the best of the best excel at the highest level of the sport, you can't keep dumbing the required skill level down.
Hey troublemaker -- don't be standing up in the NASCAR canoe! :D
 

Charlie Spencer

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And here's another stupid question. Will the lower two national series be changing to single-lug wheels at the same time as Cup? If not, will having different wheels and pit procedures have an effect on efficiency of Cup crews that pit X cars?
 

aunty dive

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And here's another stupid question. Will the lower two national series be changing to single-lug wheels at the same time as Cup? If not, will having different wheels and pit procedures have an effect on efficiency of Cup crews that pit X cars?
1. Apparently not. Those teams will get great deals on front & rear hubs and wheels from the Cup runners.

2. No. :D
 

aunty dive

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I don't like that simply because it reduces the skill level required. If you want to find out who can REALLY drive on a road course, go back to the old school BW Super T10s and Muncie M22s. One miss-timed downshift with those and your day is over.
Neither a Super T-10 nor a Muncie M21 or M22 transmission has been in use in a serious Cup car for decades.

Technology never rests. This is from 7 years ago:

“The same manufacturer’s gearboxes also have a novel ‘floating’ input shaft. Instead of using a solid shaft going into the clutch and the back of the engine, the design uses a splined hub that flexes with the car’s torsional movement. When the engine and transmission flex together, with the bellhousing absorbing the movement, the floating shaft will flex, eliminating any chance that the internal gears will bind up. Any such binding will increase both frictional power losses and increase transmission temperatures, with dynamometer testing showing that the floating-shaft system provides a useful increase in efficiency.”

https://www.highpowermedia.com/Archive/nascar-transmissions
 

Charlie Spencer

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Just like a motorcycle. If you’re in 6th gear, it’s 5 quick clicks to neutral. If you wish to start in 2nd, click up twice from neutral.

There is no reason to over-complicate this.
I've never sat on a motorcycle, much less operated one. I'm pretty sure I've parked next to one.

If I 'click' up twice to get from neutral to second, does first gear get engaged on the first click? If not, how does the system know I'll be going past first to second?
 

aunty dive

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First gear is engaged by the first click. The second click disengages first and places the second gear into the drive position.
 

Charlie Spencer

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First gear is engaged by the first click. The second click disengages first and places the second gear into the drive position.
Okay, that brings me back to my question of what happens when a driver tries to get to second if first isn't working properly for some reason. Will he get stuck when first doesn't engage? Does it depend on what's causing the problem with first?
 

aunty dive

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Roger Penske fields winning cars in the Australian Supercars series. He has a handle on the capital cost and operating costs of of racecars built to the Gen 7 spec.

His influence with the RTA and with NASCAR is written all over this.
 

Charlie Spencer

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Is this why some people have been squawking about 'paddle shifters'? I thought that just meant a different set of controls for the same basic operation, just using your fingers on the wheel instead of a handle on the floor. I didn't realize paddles implied a completely different shifting sequence. So it's not the paddles themselves that some people don't want to see, it's the sequential shifting they're used for?
 

Formerjackman

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Neither a Super T-10 nor a Muncie M21 or M22 transmission has been in use in a serious Cup car for decades.

Technology never rests. This is from 7 years ago:

“The same manufacturer’s gearboxes also have a novel ‘floating’ input shaft. Instead of using a solid shaft going into the clutch and the back of the engine, the design uses a splined hub that flexes with the car’s torsional movement. When the engine and transmission flex together, with the bellhousing absorbing the movement, the floating shaft will flex, eliminating any chance that the internal gears will bind up. Any such binding will increase both frictional power losses and increase transmission temperatures, with dynamometer testing showing that the floating-shaft system provides a useful increase in efficiency.”

https://www.highpowermedia.com/Archive/nascar-transmissions
Are we trying to run a technology demonstration, or are we trying to find out who the most talented drivers are? We ended up with the modern Cup transmissions because so many drivers sucked with the old ones, which led to too many failures. Why not just complete the process and put automated automatics in them? I'm sure a computer can shift the car better than any driver can.
 

aunty dive

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Is this why some people have been squawking about 'paddle shifters'? I thought that just meant a different set of controls for the same basic operation, just using your fingers on the wheel instead of a handle on the floor. I didn't realize paddles implied a completely different shifting sequence. So it's not the paddles themselves that some people don't want to see, it's the sequential shifting they're used for?
Paddle shifters require an electronic connection to an actuator(s) in order to change gear.
 

Formerjackman

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Is this why some people have been squawking about 'paddle shifters'? I thought that just meant a different set of controls for the same basic operation, just using your fingers on the wheel instead of a handle on the floor. I didn't realize paddles implied a completely different shifting sequence. So it's not the paddles themselves that some people don't want to see, it's the sequential shifting they're used for?
Most if not all paddle shifted street cars are automatics and all you are doing is controlling the upshifts and downshifts manually. A sequential box still has a clutch, although you don't use the clutch once you get going. A race paddle shift unit is shifting with your thumbs instead of reaching down and using a level. For a while in Grand Am, the cars that had Pro and Amateur drivers had both, but only the Ams could use the paddle shift. The Pros had to take their hand off the wheel.
 

Charlie Spencer

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Are we trying to run a technology demonstration, or are we trying to find out who the most talented drivers are? We ended up with the modern Cup transmissions because so many drivers sucked with the old ones, which led to too many failures. Why not just complete the process and put automated automatics in them? I'm sure a computer can shift the car better than any driver can.
'We' are trying to make money. Everything else is a means to that end.

I doubt the average fan cares how they shift gears, but I've been wrong before. I have plenty of questions about how the drivers will operate it since I'm unfamiliar with the technology and it appears to be what's coming, but I don't much care which methods or systems they use.
 

FLRacingFan

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'We' are trying to make money. Everything else is a means to that end.

I doubt the average fan cares how they shift gears, but I've been wrong before. I have plenty of questions about how the drivers will operate it since I'm unfamiliar with the technology and it appears to be what's coming, but I don't much care which methods or systems they use.
 

Charlie Spencer

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So it's still operated with a stick on the floor? The driver pushes forward or pulls back multiple times instead of moving through an H pattern?

That may be my last question on the subject (today).
 

Formerjackman

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'We' are trying to make money. Everything else is a means to that end.

I doubt the average fan cares how they shift gears, but I've been wrong before. I have plenty of questions about how the drivers will operate it since I'm unfamiliar with the technology and it appears to be what's coming, but I don't much care which methods or systems they use.
I only care because I hate to see them dumb down the highest form of the sport any more than they already have. Other that it doesn't matter.
 

StandOnIt

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So it's still operated with a stick on the floor? The driver pushes forward or pulls back instead of an H pattern?

That may be my last question on the subject (today).
did you see that with your own eyes? Pull it back to up shift and froward to down shift. What about this or what about that and on and on. The transmission is located in the rear of the car..I'm sure somebody will pop a cork on that next. Is it in the back back or middle back? and then one of em will say why don't they have the transmission back to where it was for the last 50 years.
 

LewTheShoe

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The minimum weight rule in Supercars, including individual driver and all his / her gear is 1,395 KG or 3,075.5 pounds.
Apparently the Gen 7 car minimum will be 3,200 pounds without the driver.

300 pounds is a lot.
It's just a guess, but I think Ryan Newman would say it's worth it to lug around a few extra kilos...:D

The Gen 7 car has to thrive on high-banked ovals from Talladega to Bristol... which creates forces through the suspension and chassis that roadracing Supercars just don't see. Also, it's designed to take a hit like Newman took at Daytona, which Supercars also don't see and are not designed to survive.

I'm sure it would be possible to build the Gen 7 car lighter, including all the required strength and safety attributes for Nascar competition, but probably only at significantly higher cost. Weight reduction in race cars is invariably expensive.
 

Charlie Spencer

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did you see that with your own eyes?
I’d like to understand what I saw. To my eyes, it wasn’t very clear exactly what Jones was doing, and it doesn’t show him downshifting at all. I tried rewatching it but YouTube had queued up a different video.
 

Hawaii808

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Roger Penske fields winning cars in the Australian Supercars series. He has a handle on the capital cost and operating costs of of racecars built to the Gen 7 spec.

His influence with the RTA and with NASCAR is written all over this.
Engineers and car set up guys from Supercars will no doubt be poached by the well moneyed teams. Brakes, transmissions, and IRS knowledge looks like it will transfer.
 
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