'21 Generation 7 Car news

Formerjackman

Team Owner
Joined
Aug 15, 2017
Messages
3,018
Points
343
It's just a guess, but I think Ryan Newman would say it's worth it to lug around a few extra kilos...:D

The Gen 7 car has to thrive on high-banked ovals from Talladega to Bristol... which creates forces through the suspension and chassis that roadracing Supercars just don't see. Also, it's designed to take a hit like Newman took at Daytona, which Supercars also don't see and are not designed to survive.

I'm sure it would be possible to build the Gen 7 car lighter, including all the required strength and safety attributes for Nascar competition, but probably only at significantly higher cost. Weight reduction in race cars is invariably expensive.
Well, the question is how much lead will these new cars end up carrying to make weight? If they need more than just a nominal amount of lead, then yes, the cars COULD be made lighter. One of the safety advantages of a lighter car is that an object in motion tries to stay in motion, and the heavier that object is, the more it wants to keep bouncing off stuff. A lighter car would transfer less inertial energy to the driver.
 

LewTheShoe

Team Owner
Joined
Apr 21, 2016
Messages
3,535
Points
493
I don't like that simply because it reduces the skill level required. If you want to find out who can REALLY drive...
If you want to see the best of the best excel at the highest level of the sport, you can't keep dumbing the required skill level down.
WOW. I'm glad to see you coming around to that view. You have consistently poo-poo'ed those of us who say the same about driving skill being the very essence of racing in our ongoing debate about flaccid motors and excessive aero grip. Welcome to the group who appreciates (and is entertained by) elite drivers competing in a contest of skill.
 

StandOnIt

Farm Truck
Joined
Feb 26, 2013
Messages
40,260
Points
883
Location
yoooklahoma
I
WOW. I'm glad to see you coming around to that view. You have consistently poo-poo'ed those of us who say the same about driving skill being the very essence of racing in our ongoing debate about flaccid motors and excessive aero grip. Welcome to the group who appreciates (and is entertained by) elite drivers competing in a contest of skill.
yeah it is harder then hell to ride single file and hope for a debris caution. Essence of racing..what a joke. All forms of racing have been limiting horsepower for years and years.
 

aunty dive

Team Owner
Joined
Mar 17, 2014
Messages
19,418
Points
883
Well, the question is how much lead will these new cars end up carrying to make weight? If they need more than just a nominal amount of lead, then yes, the cars COULD be made lighter. One of the safety advantages of a lighter car is that an object in motion tries to stay in motion, and the heavier that object is, the more it wants to keep bouncing off stuff. A lighter car would transfer less inertial energy to the driver.
Yes it would, but not by much. 2 or 3 hundred pounds barely moves the needle.

Speed is, as always, the dominating factor because velocity is squared in the equation used to determine energy transfer in a crash.

F = m * v² / (2 * d)

Force equals mass times velocity squared, divided by 2 times distance travelled after impact.
 

Old 97

Team Owner
Joined
Apr 24, 2016
Messages
460
Points
173
I didn’t have to. I still have a knock-off hammer.
I never had to use the hammer. Just a 3 foot long aluminum lug wrench. And yes, I still have it.
It makes me grin when those not invested talk lowly of the charter system.
But I digress...……...
 

StandOnIt

Farm Truck
Joined
Feb 26, 2013
Messages
40,260
Points
883
Location
yoooklahoma
A Byron wrecked it. :D

“This is a brand-new car,” said John Probst, NASCAR senior vice president of racing innovation. “We didn’t take any parts off the car we had at Richmond, Phoenix, and Homestead. Our goal was to take all the feedback we received from the first three tests and implement that into what we consider our pre-production prototype.

"This is what we intend to race in 2021. What you see here today is a result of all the testing and input we’ve received.”

https://racer.com/2020/03/03/nascar-settles-on-next-gen-specs/
 

Formerjackman

Team Owner
Joined
Aug 15, 2017
Messages
3,018
Points
343
NASCAR NextGen Wheels: The Scientific Argument for a Single Lug

https://buildingspeed.org/2020/03/05/nascar-nextgen-wheels/
I call BS on some of the information in that article. Properly made Aluminum wheels are MUCH stronger than steel wheels. They can't be cheap cast wheels though. If the wheel is designed right, you aren't going to warp it any more than you would a steel racing wheel. I think most of this crap was dreamed up after the fact to justify the decision already made. Just to be clear though, I am all in favor of the aluminum wheels and the larger diameter, I would have done all that years ago. The single nut thing though is a straw dog in my opinion.
 

aunty dive

Team Owner
Joined
Mar 17, 2014
Messages
19,418
Points
883
I call BS on some of the information in that article. Properly made Aluminum wheels are MUCH stronger than steel wheels. They can't be cheap cast wheels though. If the wheel is designed right, you aren't going to warp it any more than you would a steel racing wheel. I think most of this crap was dreamed up after the fact to justify the decision already made. Just to be clear though, I am all in favor of the aluminum wheels and the larger diameter, I would have done all that years ago. The single nut thing though is a straw dog in my opinion.
Steel wheels bend. Aluminum wheels break.

"Diandra Leslie-Pelecky Hilborn earned undergraduate degrees in physics and philosophy from the University of North Texas and a Ph.D. in condensed matter physics from Michigan State University. She spent the majority of her twenty-year academic career as a nanomaterials research and educator at the University of Nebraska–Lincoln."

"She is a popular speaker with technical and non-technical audiences, including addresses for the public sponsored by the American Association for the Advancement of Science, colleges and universities, science museums, and the American Physical Society. Her book, The Physics of NASCAR, was excerpted by TIME magazine and has been featured in publications from the Materials Research Bulletin to Sporting News."

https://www.drdiandra.com/about/drdAboutBios.php
 

StandOnIt

Farm Truck
Joined
Feb 26, 2013
Messages
40,260
Points
883
Location
yoooklahoma
They probably should have said Aluminum alloy. But yeah for the most part it is more brittle than steel and going by how the pit crew installs steel wheels all wrong from a torque standpoint, they think they will have less problems with a single nut. Time will tell. They are running around at 180 with three nuts tight sometimes and a terrible vibration. I doubt Aluminum could handle that.
 

Ventisca

Team Owner
Joined
Dec 3, 2018
Messages
2,511
Points
293
NASCAR threw a bunch of parts in a blender and hit the button. State-media reported snippets of NASCAR approved observations that should not be relied on.

They're gonna run a ROVAL parade and a few sprints, before rolling out the horse-by-committee reinforced sports-cars out of the pits and into our living rooms for the main show.

This is the stuff of marketing dreams -- so much anticipation as both traditional and progressive fans get ready to give praise or hurl insults at the final product. I cannot wait to be surprised either way.
 

Formerjackman

Team Owner
Joined
Aug 15, 2017
Messages
3,018
Points
343
They probably should have said Aluminum alloy. But yeah for the most part it is more brittle than steel and going by how the pit crew installs steel wheels all wrong from a torque standpoint, they think they will have less problems with a single nut. Time will tell. They are running around at 180 with three nuts tight sometimes and a terrible vibration. I doubt Aluminum could handle that.
Have you guys spent any time are Alcoa aluminum semi wheels? Those things will take abuse that will make a steel truck wheel cry for their mommy. That's why you are seeing more and more of them on dump trucks and other vocational vehicles. They just hold up better.
 

Nitro Dude

Hauler Driver and Cylinder Head Maintenance
Joined
Feb 14, 2011
Messages
6,024
Points
793
Location
Orange Ca
Have you guys spent any time are Alcoa aluminum semi wheels? Those things will take abuse that will make a steel truck wheel cry for their mommy. That's why you are seeing more and more of them on dump trucks and other vocational vehicles. They just hold up better.
Spot on FJ. I have pulled many of the top trailer manufactures race car trailers for many years--Featherlite, Competition, Gold Rush, and a few others and I have never had a problem with an Alcoa aluminum wheel. But, I have seen more then a few steel frame trailers have to go back to the manufacture to be repaired because the trailer frame would start breaking right behind where the lounge drops down to the bottom floor of the trailer. Due to the fact that a lot of race car trailers are parked inside when at home and they are taken very well care of you can get a lot of life out them. The trailer I pulled for the past 5 years was a 1993 Gold Rush aluminum frame trailer and it was much lighter and in better shape then a lot of the steel frame trailers on the tour. I would look down the side of a 1993 steel frame trailer and the side panels would be wavy but when I looked down the side of our 1993 aluminum framed trailer the body panels were straight and that is because the frame was not sagging.
 

aunty dive

Team Owner
Joined
Mar 17, 2014
Messages
19,418
Points
883
Talking about three different applications IMO and all are engineered differently for the task they do.
Give it up, Stan.

We're fortunate to be blessed by the presence of someone who willingly calls BS on scientific facts in the condensed matter physics area as described by someone with a PHD in condensed matter physics.
 

Nitro Dude

Hauler Driver and Cylinder Head Maintenance
Joined
Feb 14, 2011
Messages
6,024
Points
793
Location
Orange Ca
Talking about three different applications IMO and all are engineered differently for the task they do.
I agree that they are all engineered different and I like the idea of a single nut system. I also realize that stock car wheels see a lot more heat and would need to be engineered differently then lets say a 12,000 horse power top fuel dragster or funny car which use an aluminum rear wheel with a titanium 5 nut system. Aunty dive is correct about steel bending and aluminum breaking but the wheel companies will engineer a good wheel for what ever application that is needed. Lets make it real interesting and tub them out and put the wheels we use on them.:)
https://www.weldwheels.com/product/tf1/
 
Last edited:

Formerjackman

Team Owner
Joined
Aug 15, 2017
Messages
3,018
Points
343
Give it up, Stan.

We're fortunate to be blessed by the presence of someone who willingly calls BS on scientific facts in the condensed matter physics area as described by someone with a PHD in condensed matter physics.
The problem is that the physics mentioned in the article may not apply to the actual application or tell the whole story. All I'm saying is that if you make a forged aluminum wheel with the proper alloy, it will vastly outperform any steel race wheel ever built and I'm quite certain that it could more than erase this supposed lack of safety factor that NASCAR is talking about. Nitro's example of the top fuel rear wheel brings up a good point. If an aluminum wheel can withstand THAT, there isn't anything a stock car is going to do to it.
 

Charlie Spencer

Short tracks and road courses.
Joined
Oct 17, 2012
Messages
19,311
Points
883
Location
Lexington, SC
At the risk of further demonstrating my ignorance, aren't the loads on a top fuel wheel for only a few seconds at a time? More intense but far less sustained?

I'm not a metallurgist and I didn't stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.
 

Betsy

Team Owner
Joined
Feb 7, 2003
Messages
2,239
Points
393
Location
Leander, TEXAS
The lawyers are telling NASCAR aluminum is KNOWN to shatter at 200 MPH. And WE cannot defend you if you go to aluminum wheels.
So we stay with steel.
Betsy
 

Nitro Dude

Hauler Driver and Cylinder Head Maintenance
Joined
Feb 14, 2011
Messages
6,024
Points
793
Location
Orange Ca
At the risk of further demonstrating my ignorance, aren't the loads on a top fuel wheel for only a few seconds at a time? More intense but far less sustained?

I'm not a metallurgist and I didn't stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.
Yes, and that and heat is what the wheel and hub companies will take in to consideration when they design a new wheel and hub or attaching system. There is definitely a lot of concern when changing the design of something as important as a wheel and how it is secured and there have been a lot of good views or opinions in this thread.
 

Team Penske

Team Owner
Joined
Jan 16, 2015
Messages
5,890
Points
643
Have you guys spent any time are Alcoa aluminum semi wheels? Those things will take abuse that will make a steel truck wheel cry for their mommy. That's why you are seeing more and more of them on dump trucks and other vocational vehicles. They just hold up better.
Ya and they are so good that in Canada you have to be certified to actually change these wheels. Tell the people killed by flying wheels how great these wheels are.
 

StandOnIt

Farm Truck
Joined
Feb 26, 2013
Messages
40,260
Points
883
Location
yoooklahoma
Yes, and that and heat is what the wheel and hub companies will take in to consideration when they design a new wheel and hub or attaching system. There is definitely a lot of concern when changing the design of something as important as a wheel and how it is secured and there have been a lot of good views or opinions in this thread.
You guys have time to torque the wheel to precise specs, but the Nascar pit crews just slap them on there as fast as possible. Now if Nascar would squeeze the fuel nozzle down for 25 second pit stops they could take fans from the stands to work the pits. or in Greggs case gather up some pit lizards. :idunno:
 

Nitro Dude

Hauler Driver and Cylinder Head Maintenance
Joined
Feb 14, 2011
Messages
6,024
Points
793
Location
Orange Ca
You guys have time to torque the wheel to precise specs, but the Nascar pit crews just slap them on there as fast as possible. Now if Nascar would squeeze the fuel nozzle down for 25 second pit stops they could take fans from the stands to work the pits. or in Greggs case gather up some pit lizards. :idunno:
If they go up to 30 seconds then maybe I could get me a part time gig torqueing wheels. If not I may end up as a part time greeter at Wal-Mart.:)
 

Nitro Dude

Hauler Driver and Cylinder Head Maintenance
Joined
Feb 14, 2011
Messages
6,024
Points
793
Location
Orange Ca
I never really paid any attention to how much clearance they have between the roof of the cars and the roof of the trailer. I wonder if they will have to put a special 15 inch wheel on them to haul them. We have between 1/2 and 2 inches clearance depending on the air pressure.
 

Charlie Spencer

Short tracks and road courses.
Joined
Oct 17, 2012
Messages
19,311
Points
883
Location
Lexington, SC
I never really paid any attention to how much clearance they have between the roof of the cars and the roof of the trailer. I wonder if they will have to put a special 15 inch wheel on them to haul them. We have between 1/2 and 2 inches clearance depending on the air pressure.
I believe the overall height will remain the same. While the wheels will be 18" in diameter, the tire sidewalls will be correspondingly reduced, resulting a wheel / tire combination that's the same overall diameter as the current tire / wheel set. Check any of the photos with them side by side and you'll see there's no difference in the total height.

EDIT: see post #1260, It's a bit dark but you compare the tops of the tires with the stacked tires behind them to see they're the same height.
https://racing-forums.com/threads/21-generation-7-car-news.67097/page-32#post-1685434
 

KTMLew01

Team Owner
Joined
Jan 31, 2017
Messages
1,585
Points
243
I’d like to understand what I saw. To my eyes, it wasn’t very clear exactly what Jones was doing, and it doesn’t show him downshifting at all. I tried rewatching it but YouTube had queued up a different video.
Couple of pictures. One is of a motorcycle trans shift drum and forks. Other is an automotive sequential. The transmission is technically in neutral when half way between gears. It if wasn't it would just lock up. When the shift drum is turned the crooked slots move the forks. So a 5 speed transmission has at least 5 neutrals. "Neutral" as we think of it is just a detent that holds position half-way between any gear locked into drive mode.
 

Attachments

Last edited:

Formerjackman

Team Owner
Joined
Aug 15, 2017
Messages
3,018
Points
343
Ya and they are so good that in Canada you have to be certified to actually change these wheels. Tell the people killed by flying wheels how great these wheels are.
Can you elaborate on this, because I have no clue what you are talking about. Are you talking about putting the wheel on the truck, or putting the tire on the wheel?
 

Team Penske

Team Owner
Joined
Jan 16, 2015
Messages
5,890
Points
643
Can you elaborate on this, because I have no clue what you are talking about. Are you talking about putting the wheel on the truck, or putting the tire on the wheel?
Only certified people can mount a wheel on a truck. This law came into effect because of those aluminum rims when not installed correct, came lose and off the truck at speed going down the highway. They may look nice but can be deadly. That's why Nascar is going with 1 center lug nut.
 

Charlie Spencer

Short tracks and road courses.
Joined
Oct 17, 2012
Messages
19,311
Points
883
Location
Lexington, SC
Only certified people can mount a wheel on a truck. This law came into effect because of those aluminum rims when not installed correct, came lose and off the truck at speed going down the highway. They may look nice but can be deadly. That's why Nascar is going with 1 center lug nut.
Why would an aluminum wheel be more likely than a steel one to come off if mounted incorrectly? How much different is the mounting procedure?
 

Formerjackman

Team Owner
Joined
Aug 15, 2017
Messages
3,018
Points
343
Only certified people can mount a wheel on a truck. This law came into effect because of those aluminum rims when not installed correct, came lose and off the truck at speed going down the highway. They may look nice but can be deadly. That's why Nascar is going with 1 center lug nut.
That's complete nonsense. Aluminum wheels are not installed any differently than steel wheels and are not any more likely to come off than steel wheels. We have employees that can barley walk and chew gum at the same time that have no problem installing these wheels.
 
Top Bottom