'21 Generation 7 Car news

StandOnIt

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Bozi Tatarevic writes:
Dallara is a world class racing company and they are very good at what they do but a stock car is a very specific design that needs specific engineering for stuff like yaw and over time it has become fairly apparent that engineers on the teams weren't brought into the mix enough.

Probably because Dallara isn't in the mix
Spec chassis
In contrast to the body-on-frame construction of previous generations, the Next-Gen car will use a carbon fiber tub. This construction allows the driver to be positioned farther from the door panel of the car, further increasing its safety. Dallara was initially rumored to be the exclusive supplier of the new chassis, but it was revealed that Technique recently opened a shop in Concord, North Carolina, indicating that they will manufacture the chassis for NASCAR teams

It looks like besides sticking an OEM nose and maybe a tail piece on the car it is pretty much done.
John Probst, NASCAR's senior vice president of racing innovation, commented that the "P3" prototype Byron tested was nearly 100 percent of the final product


 

aunty dive

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Bozi Tatarevic writes:
... but a stock car is a very specific design that needs specific engineering for stuff like yaw ...
This word salad tells me that Bozi should probably stick to writing fan fiction.

Maybe something about a handsome race car driver that falls in love with a gorgeous 26 year old neurosurgeon. Sumthin’ like that.
 

Charlie Spencer

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It will be a composite body made of fibrous materials including fiberglass, kevlar, and carbon fiber. The exactly blend will be a secret by the body manufacturer.
I'm asking about the test car, not the eventual finished product. What have the bodies been made of on the test vehicles so far, sheet metal or something similar to X cars? I ask because of the previous posts regarding test car weight.
 

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Bozi Tatarevic writes:
Dallara is a world class racing company and they are very good at what they do but a stock car is a very specific design that needs specific engineering for stuff like yaw and over time it has become fairly apparent that engineers on the teams weren't brought into the mix enough.

Probably because Dallara isn't in the mix
Spec chassis
In contrast to the body-on-frame construction of previous generations, the Next-Gen car will use a carbon fiber tub. This construction allows the driver to be positioned farther from the door panel of the car, further increasing its safety. Dallara was initially rumored to be the exclusive supplier of the new chassis, but it was revealed that Technique recently opened a shop in Concord, North Carolina, indicating that they will manufacture the chassis for NASCAR teams

It looks like besides sticking an OEM nose and maybe a tail piece on the car it is pretty much done.
John Probst, NASCAR's senior vice president of racing innovation, commented that the "P3" prototype Byron tested was nearly 100 percent of the final product


Dallara was a design consultant and has input on the engineering process.


 

StandOnIt

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Bozi Tatarevic writes:
On top of that you have all new aerodynamic elements that appear to have a lot of basis in sports cars especially when you look at the diffuser and you get unpredictable results with a car that's very sensitive especially when you put it on an oval.

DiffuserGate

They just finished a successful endurance test at Dover (oval), previously at Richmond (oval), Phoenix (oval), Homestead-Miami (oval), Auto Club (oval) and the Daytona Road Course. At the same time as Dover, another prototype was being tested at the Daytona road course by IMSA experts Action Express Racing. Action Express is making laps Monday with its own Next Gen prototype The team test is being conducted with reigning series champ Felipe Nasr and Team Penske’s Austin Cindric . Probst says super speedway next. I guess we can wait to see with the diffuser on the car that according to the mechanic/writer Tatarevic says produces unpredictable results with a car that is very sensitive especially when you put it on an oval if the car will take off and fly.
 

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Bozi Tatarevic writes:
On top of that you have all new aerodynamic elements that appear to have a lot of basis in sports cars especially when you look at the diffuser and you get unpredictable results with a car that's very sensitive especially when you put it on an oval.

DiffuserGate

They just finished a successful endurance test at Dover (oval), previously at Richmond (oval), Phoenix (oval), Homestead-Miami (oval), Auto Club (oval) and the Daytona Road Course. At the same time as Dover, another prototype was being tested at the Daytona road course by IMSA experts Action Express Racing. Action Express is making laps Monday with its own Next Gen prototype The team test is being conducted with reigning series champ Felipe Nasr and Team Penske’s Austin Cindric . Probst says super speedway next. I guess we can wait to see with the diffuser on the car that according to the mechanic/writer Tatarevic says produces unpredictable results with a car that is very sensitive especially when you put it on an oval if the car will take off and fly.
My guess, and we all guessing here, is he's talking about cars in packs being affected by air flow from the diffuser. Again, we ALL guessing.

EDIT: I did NOT read any of the article.
 

StandOnIt

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The problem I have is how would he know? I know one thing, he doesn't have a wind tunnel, doesn't have any numbers from the previous car(s) to compare it to. So yeah I have a problem with a mechanic's opinion, one that isn't even in Nascar putting a hatchet job on the car he knows little if anything about. :idunno:
 

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The heavier car bit was surprising to me too, but I guess that could be down to things like bigger wheels?
It could be as simple as the fact that it's a spec chassis and body. In racing, lighter weight always costs more. Nascar teams currently spend enormous amounts to build the car as light as a feather, and then load it up with ballast located down low. If the supplier rules for the new car cancel that competitive dynamic, building it a little heavier could lower the costs.
From the V8 Supercar rules:

"The minimum weight of each car is 1,395 kilograms (3,075 lb) including the driver, with a minimum load of 755 kg over the front axle. The minimum weight for the driver is 100 kg and includes the driver dressed in a full racing suit, the seat and seat mountings and any ballast needed to meet the minimum weight."

100kg = 220 pounds.
I seem to recall that the new V-8 Supercar Mustangs had so much weight located down low that they eventually were required to locate ballast in the roof...? That's one way for the sanctioning body to deal with an expensive competitive innovation.
 

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Has NASCAR stated when they expect Gen 8 to roll-out? So far all this news leads me to believe Gen 7 will be a short-lived bandage for what they hope to achieve with electric-powered cars.
 

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I wonder if Bozi’s word salad is better with Ranch or Italian?
 

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Has NASCAR stated when they expect Gen 8 to roll-out? So far all this news leads me to believe Gen 7 will be a short-lived bandage for what they hope to achieve with electric-powered cars.
Gawd, did you have to go to either one of those places this year? Can we get the new one on the track first?
 

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Has NASCAR stated when they expect Gen 8 to roll-out? So far all this news leads me to believe Gen 7 will be a short-lived bandage for what they hope to achieve with electric-powered cars.
NewGen12b coming in 2051 is where it's gonna be at. Hydrogen fuel cells gonna be the shnizzle.
 

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Bozi Tatarevic writes:
On top of that you have all new aerodynamic elements that appear to have a lot of basis in sports cars especially when you look at the diffuser and you get unpredictable results with a car that's very sensitive especially when you put it on an oval.

DiffuserGate

They just finished a successful endurance test at Dover (oval), previously at Richmond (oval), Phoenix (oval), Homestead-Miami (oval), Auto Club (oval) and the Daytona Road Course. At the same time as Dover, another prototype was being tested at the Daytona road course by IMSA experts Action Express Racing. Action Express is making laps Monday with its own Next Gen prototype The team test is being conducted with reigning series champ Felipe Nasr and Team Penske’s Austin Cindric . Probst says super speedway next. I guess we can wait to see with the diffuser on the car that according to the mechanic/writer Tatarevic says produces unpredictable results with a car that is very sensitive especially when you put it on an oval if the car will take off and fly.

I have never been a fan of diffusers, if for no other reason than they look stupid and take cars further away from a stock look, but that aside, they do present some issues that can negatively effect the racing. The first is damage incurred from on track incidents. If a Cup car gets hit in the rear and damages the diffuser, will teams be allowed to replace it like they can in sports car series, or are you just out of luck? Can you try to repair it? Also, on a road course, the diffuser can be damaged by running over the curbs. At last weekend's IMSA race, the class leading GTLM Porsche had a loose diffuser cut a rear tire and cost them the win. The Corvette that took over the lead also had a diffuser about to fall off, and was lucky to get to the finish either before it did or he was black flagged for it. Point two is that when the third generation of the Grand Am Daytona Prototypes came out (2012?), that was when the Corvette DP body style premered, and during testing at Daytona there were a couple of wicked flips attibuted to the way the diffuser was working. Something was changed, and the problem SEEMED to disappear, but something to keep in mind. I'm not aware of a diffuser being used on ANY type of scenario similar to what a typical Cup race looks like, so who knows what hidden unintended consequences might arise? My opinion has always been that the LEAST amount of aerodynamic aides allowed the better. I am a great hater of splitters and dive planes. Make a decent body and race it the way it is instead of adding a bunch of aero crutches that look stupid and can easily be damaged and take cars out of contention. Think how much better racing would be if the wind tunnel had never been invented. Like so many things in racing, you spend millions of dollar and thousands of man hours going down a rat hole and in the end everybody ends up with the exact same stuff anyway, so what's the point?
 

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I seem to recall that the new V-8 Supercar Mustangs had so much weight located down low that they eventually were required to locate ballast in the roof...?
Did that really happen?

I remember a while back when ballast came loose from a car and thinking what a potential deadly projectile it could be.

They really had ballast located in the car near head level?
 

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I have never been a fan of diffusers, if for no other reason than they look stupid and take cars further away from a stock look, but that aside, they do present some issues that can negatively effect the racing. The first is damage incurred from on track incidents. If a Cup car gets hit in the rear and damages the diffuser, will teams be allowed to replace it like they can in sports car series, or are you just out of luck? Can you try to repair it? Also, on a road course, the diffuser can be damaged by running over the curbs. At last weekend's IMSA race, the class leading GTLM Porsche had a loose diffuser cut a rear tire and cost them the win. The Corvette that took over the lead also had a diffuser about to fall off, and was lucky to get to the finish either before it did or he was black flagged for it. Point two is that when the third generation of the Grand Am Daytona Prototypes came out (2012?), that was when the Corvette DP body style premered, and during testing at Daytona there were a couple of wicked flips attibuted to the way the diffuser was working. Something was changed, and the problem SEEMED to disappear, but something to keep in mind. I'm not aware of a diffuser being used on ANY type of scenario similar to what a typical Cup race looks like, so who knows what hidden unintended consequences might arise? My opinion has always been that the LEAST amount of aerodynamic aides allowed the better. I am a great hater of splitters and dive planes. Make a decent body and race it the way it is instead of adding a bunch of aero crutches that look stupid and can easily be damaged and take cars out of contention. Think how much better racing would be if the wind tunnel had never been invented. Like so many things in racing, you spend millions of dollar and thousands of man hours going down a rat hole and in the end everybody ends up with the exact same stuff anyway, so what's the point?
6 minutes for repairs?

The diffuser is in play in order to help reduce the volume of turbulent air tumbling over the front ends of following cars. It's a dirty business. They're used in sedan racing all over the planet, including the V8 supercar series.

Penske owns some of those cars. I wonder if he's thought to put one of them in a wind tunnel?
 

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Did that really happen?

I remember a while back when ballast came loose from a car and thinking what a potential deadly projectile it could be.

They really had ballast located in the car near head level?
The first Mustang redistribution had lead wrapped around the roll cage, the next had them move some weight back to the floor and the added roof weight was changed to swapping out composite header rails for steel.


The Holden did have lead blocks bolted into the roof but they were removed the second time around.

 

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Going back to the Action Express test, it sounds as if there’s a real possibility the Next Gen car could run in the Rolex 24 next year as an invitational/showcase entry.
Well, that would certainly give it some testing in traffic without having to field a ton of cars. Might attract a few extra eyeballs, too, although I don't know why any race fan wouldn't already be watching it anyway.
 

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6 minutes for repairs?

The diffuser is in play in order to help reduce the volume of turbulent air tumbling over the front ends of following cars. It's a dirty business. They're used in sedan racing all over the planet, including the V8 supercar series.
None of which tells us ANYTHING about how they will react when used on a high banked oval in a pack of cars at sustained speeds.

Penske owns some of those cars. I wonder if he's thought to put one of them in a wind tunnel?
Penske and everyone else. A couple of little firms called Chevrolet and Pratt & Miller developed the Corvette DP body and aero package, and yet it didn't prevent a couple of those cars from becoming darts without feathers the first time they were tried in real world conditions.
 

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None of which tells us ANYTHING about how they will react when used on a high banked oval in a pack of cars at sustained speeds.

Penske and everyone else. A couple of little firms called Chevrolet and Pratt & Miller developed the Corvette DP body and aero package, and yet it didn't prevent a couple of those cars from becoming darts without feathers the first time they were tried in real world conditions.
I didn’t say that it did. You and Bozi seem to have determined a negative outcome for this device. He refers to “Diffusergate” ... he posts garbage for clicks. Your agenda remains constant.

You have obviously missed the larger point of Penske’s involvement in the V8 Supercars series. That’s not a surprise. It isn’t Penske and everyone else ... I am unaware of any other RTA member running cars in that series.
Clearly, the new cars are directly derived from that involvement.

The aerodynamic elements of the design are the product of CFD - Computational Fluid Dynamics simulation and the software that drives it. This us a mature technology employed directly or indirectly by every successful professional race team in every professional series on the planet. Like any other simulation, it does not produce results that transfer perfectly to the real world. Wind tunnel hours point that up as does on-track testing. Engineers take it from there. In this case, I can’t imagine design engineers didn’t have access to several years worth of CFD, tunnel and on-track data acquired by Team Penske.

What does a short term aerodynamic issue that occurred 9 years ago have to do with this? Relative to past, present and the next generation of Cup cars, DP cars are much lighter, present a smaller frontal area and carry a huge adjustable rear wing and an aerodynamically tuned floor. Louvers in the fender tops, NACA ducts, dive planes and various and sundry aero tabs and flip-ups complete the picture. In light of all of that, to equate the short term problem encountered and quickly resolved by Pratt and Miller to Bozi’s click-bait dire fortune-telling is embarrassing.

Also pushrods.
 
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KTMLew01

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I didn’t say that it did. You and Bozi seem to have determined a negative outcome for this device. He refers to “Diffusergate” ... he posts garbage for clicks. Your agenda remains constant.

You have obviously missed the larger point of Penske’s involvement in the V8 Supercars series. That’s not a surprise. It isn’t Penske and everyone else ... I am unaware of any other RTA member running cars in that series.
Clearly, the new cars are directly derived from that involvement.

The aerodynamic elements of the design are the product of CFD - Computational Fluid Dynamics simulation and the software that drives it. This us a mature technology employed directly or indirectly by every successful professional race team in every professional series on the planet. Like any other simulation, it does not produce results that transfer perfectly to the real world. Wind tunnel hours point that up as does on-track testing. Engineers take it from there. In this case, I can’t imagine design engineers didn’t have access to several years worth of CFD, tunnel and on-track data acquired by Team Penske.

What does a short term aerodynamic issue that occurred 9 years ago have to do with this? Relative to past, present and the next generation of Cup cars, DP cars are much lighter, present a smaller frontal area and carry a huge adjustable rear wing and an aerodynamically tuned floor. Louvers in the fender tops, NACA ducts, dive planes and various and sundry aero tabs and flip-ups complete the picture. In light of all of that, to equate the short term problem encountered and quickly resolved by Pratt and Miller to Bozi’s click-bait dire fortune-telling is embarrassing.

Also pushrods.
i believe jackman has a whole fleet of Hudson's he wants to get back on the track. Me? I want a field of 85 Underbirds.
 

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Bozi Tatarevic writes:
... In contrast to the body-on-frame construction of previous generations, the Next-Gen car will use a carbon fiber tub.
I didn't know carbon fiber tubs had been confirmed for the Next Gen car. How did I miss the sound of exploding heads of all the Early Nascar Era nostalgia buffs who believe modern race cars are intended by God and Big Bill France to closely resemble showroom vehicles?

Are V-8 Supercars also using a carbon fiber tub? I know the German DTM does, but I thought V-8 Supercars used a welded tube structure like Nascar.
 

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i believe jackman has a whole fleet of Hudson's he wants to get back on the track. Me? I want a field of 85 Underbirds.
No, it's a fleet of Buick Regals and Monte Carlo SS Aerocoupes. They will play nicely with your 85 Thunderbirds, assuming they are actually 1:1 scale, and not 7/8 scale. :)
I didn’t say that it did. You and Bozi seem to have determined a negative outcome for this device. He refers to “Diffusergate” ... he posts garbage for clicks. Your agenda remains constant.

You have obviously missed the larger point of Penske’s involvement in the V8 Supercars series. That’s not a surprise. It isn’t Penske and everyone else ... I am unaware of any other RTA member running cars in that series.
Clearly, the new cars are directly derived from that involvement.

The aerodynamic elements of the design are the product of CFD - Computational Fluid Dynamics simulation and the software that drives it. This us a mature technology employed directly or indirectly by every successful professional race team in every professional series on the planet. Like any other simulation, it does not produce results that transfer perfectly to the real world. Wind tunnel hours point that up as does on-track testing. Engineers take it from there. In this case, I can’t imagine design engineers didn’t have access to several years worth of CFD, tunnel and on-track data acquired by Team Penske.

What does a short term aerodynamic issue that occurred 9 years ago have to do with this? Relative to past, present and the next generation of Cup cars, DP cars are much lighter, present a smaller frontal area and carry a huge adjustable rear wing and an aerodynamically tuned floor. Louvers in the fender tops, NACA ducts, dive planes and various and sundry aero tabs and flip-ups complete the picture. In light of all of that, to equate the short term problem encountered and quickly resolved by Pratt and Miller to Bozi’s click-bait dire fortune-telling is embarrassing.

Also pushrods.
My point was simply that diffusers have never been used in ANY kind of racing that is similar to a NASCAR Cup race, so computer programs and wind tunnels aside, NOBODY actually knows how they will effect the racing, and the engineers don't ALWAYS get it right the first or even the second time. I also feel that they are completely unnecessary and have no place on ANY race car, let alone a Cup car. I'm sure you disagree, but what the hell else is new? As I keep saying, build a decent body, let the body do the aero work, and leave all the trick do-dads in the carbon fiber shop. Noboy has ever been able to make the case to me that making race cars more aero efficient actually improved the quality of the racing, which is what is sorely needed right now. Ever notice that the NASCAR series with the WORST aerodynamics put on the best show?
 

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My point was simply that diffusers have never been used in ANY kind of racing that is similar to a NASCAR Cup race, so computer programs and wind tunnels aside, NOBODY actually knows how they will effect the racing, and the engineers don't ALWAYS get it right the first or even the second time. I also feel that they are completely unnecessary and have no place on ANY race car, let alone a Cup car. I'm sure you disagree, but what the hell else is new? As I keep saying, build a decent body, let the body do the aero work, and leave all the trick do-dads in the carbon fiber shop. Noboy has ever been able to make the case to me that making race cars more aero efficient actually improved the quality of the racing, which is what is sorely needed right now. Ever notice that the NASCAR series with the WORST aerodynamics put on the best show?
Oh. I thought your point aligned perfectly with Click-Bait Bozi’s.

I won’t engage any further regarding the use of a diffuser as part of the aero package on the new car. You complain bitterly about the current aero configurations because dirty air while complaining about efforts to reduce the volume of turbulent air produced. Unfathomable.

Let’s re-visit this subject matter after the new cars have run 2 or 3 races at high speed tracks. Have a pleasant rest of the day.
 

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The first Mustang redistribution had lead wrapped around the roll cage, the next had them move some weight back to the floor and the added roof weight was changed to swapping out composite header rails for steel.

The Holden did have lead blocks bolted into the roof but they were removed the second time around.
Thanks for the great detailed response!
 

Formerjackman

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Oh. I thought your point aligned perfectly with Click-Bait Bozi’s.

I won’t engage any further regarding the use of a diffuser as part of the aero package on the new car. You complain bitterly about the current aero configurations because dirty air while complaining about efforts to reduce the volume of turbulent air produced. Unfathomable.

Let’s re-visit this subject matter after the new cars have run 2 or 3 races at high speed tracks. Have a pleasant rest of the day.
Just for the record, I've never said a word about dirty air one way or another. I HAVE long advocated punching as big of a hole in the air as possible, like the Truck Series. I would contend the more aero efficient the cars get, the more aero DEPENDENT they get, and I don't see that as a good thing.
 

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Just for the record, I've never said a word about dirty air one way or another. I HAVE long advocated punching as big of a hole in the air as possible, like the Truck Series. I would contend the more aero efficient the cars get, the more aero DEPENDENT they get, and I don't see that as a good thing.
The closest the Cup series got to that approach was the original COT design, which was quite Truck-descended, if you will. I contend that you are incorrectly attributing what you like about the Trucks to their high drag and aero characteristics. I believe that people who consider the Trucks the "best racing in NASCAR" think that because less experienced and consistent drivers make a lot of mistakes there, creating entertainment.

General differences over downforce philosophy aside, a rear diffuser should be an improved way to generate rear downforce as opposed to purely relying on a large rear spoiler. It could allow them to chop the spoiler down, resulting in less turbulence and downforce penalty for trailing cars.
 

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The closest the Cup series got to that approach was the original COT design, which was quite Truck-descended, if you will. I contend that you are incorrectly attributing what you like about the Trucks to their high drag and aero characteristics. I believe that people who consider the Trucks the "best racing in NASCAR" think that because less experienced and consistent drivers make a lot of mistakes there, creating entertainment.

General differences over downforce philosophy aside, a rear diffuser should be an improved way to generate rear downforce as opposed to purely relying on a large rear spoiler. It could allow them to chop the spoiler down, resulting in less turbulence and downforce penalty for trailing cars.
When I talk bout the truck Series being a great show, I am most definately not talking about mistakes. I am talking about the closeness of competition and the fact the trucks seem to be on the edge of out of control all of the time. Take Kyle Busch out of the mix, and you almost never get a runaway Truck race or a dull finish.
 

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When I talk bout the truck Series being a great show, I am most definately not talking about mistakes. I am talking about the closeness of competition and the fact the trucks seem to be on the edge of out of control all of the time. Take Kyle Busch out of the mix, and you almost never get a runaway Truck race or a dull finish.
Yeah, Kyle Busch shouldn't be there. Nobody else who excels enough to dominate the series will stay there for long. At its best, the Trucks field is an interesting mix of veterans who aren't fit for the higher levels and national series newcomers who are still learning. It's a good show. The closeness of competition is definitely in part due to it being by definition lesser competition. This dynamic exists throughout racing and sport. If all you're after is close, unpredictable competition, the lower levels are where that is at.
 
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Charlie Spencer

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I believe that people who consider the Trucks the "best racing in NASCAR" think that because less experienced and consistent drivers make a lot of mistakes there, creating entertainment.
Truck races are shorter. They have to race; they don't have time to cruise around logging laps.
 

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Ratios for 4th, 5th and 6th gears in the transaxle will be closely spaced. Ideal for road circuits.

I wonder if we’ll see gear changes on some of the other track configurations? In addition to the usual suspect(s), I think it would be handy at Loudon. Anywhere else?
 

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I believe that people who consider the Trucks the "best racing in NASCAR" think that because less experienced and consistent drivers make a lot of mistakes there, creating entertainment.
Truck races are shorter. They have to race; they don't have time to cruise around logging laps.
For my own personal entertainment reasoning, it’s much like college sports. These athletes aren’t playing for anything more than their own pride and something to prove. It brings out some of the best abilities. Once they get to the highest level and earn a long term contract, there is less psychological incentive to perform.
 

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Still, Phelps mentioned the “revenue challenges” some teams, such as Leavine Family Racing, which sold its team ownership last month, suffered due to COVID-19. He said that the industry was counting on the Next Gen car to reduce team costs next season, but the rollout was delayed a year due to the pandemic.

“That car is meant to do three things,” Phelps said. “It’s meant to lower costs, to have better racing and then from a styling standpoint, it’s meant to look more like a showroom car.”
 
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