78 FRR is done

I would disagree that we have had fewer cautions for parts falling off cars. All the six minute rule did was that instead of taking the car to the garage and fixing it properly, they now try to hold stuff on with a bunch of tape. In the world of unintended consequences, I think the potential for an even MORE serious problem was created by this rule. I have NEVER been in favor of it.

that hasn't happened and neither have water bottles or pieces of foam being thrown on the track in an attempt to bring out cautions. The new rules, construction of cars, the materials used and the solutions to repair them have changed recently. The old way they had teams trying to do the impossible with major crash damage that led to pieces of metal with tape holding them on trying to rebuild a car that was mortally wounded. That practice led to optimistic crash teams trying to fix something that was a rolling road hazard, sending it out on the track leaking fluids with parts and pieces flying off sometimes doing it again and again before the car was declared dead after causing multiple cautions and many times taking out other cars along the way. Those days are gone.
 
You stated that you liked my post but didn't agree with it because you didn't like anything that would add caution laps to a race. I replied directly to your comment, pointed out that we get endless laps run under caution via stage racing, and asked how you could enjoy races with the stages in them. It seems pretty clear to me what my point was. Thus -

Stage racing has tons of artificially added yellow laps.
According to your post, you don't like anything that adds caution laps to a race.
My question - If you don't like laps being run under then yellow how do you watch stage racing?

If the original post wasn't clear enough I hope this one brought it into focus for you.

Why is stage racing being blamed for the caution laps? All stage racing has done is allow the sport to determine exactly when the TV producers can align the commercials. The same in many sports. Before stages it was the mysterious debris that made the decision. I doubt there are more caution laps run because of stages.
 
Why is stage racing being blamed for the caution laps? All stage racing has done is allow the sport to determine exactly when the TV producers can align the commercials. The same in many sports. Before stages it was the mysterious debris that made the decision. I doubt there are more caution laps run because of stages.

well they complained about the cautions before, did you really think it would be any different with the other?
 
Why is stage racing being blamed for the caution laps? All stage racing has done is allow the sport to determine exactly when the TV producers can align the commercials. The same in many sports. Before stages it was the mysterious debris that made the decision. I doubt there are more caution laps run because of stages.


- If NASCAR wants to be viewed as something outside of the WWE then "mysterious debris" cautions shouldn't have ever been a part of the sport. That is an outside entity artificially manipulating a (wink wink) "sport".

- Caution lap complaints might go down if they NASCAR would start the race the next lap after a return from commercials. Sitting and watching 2 or 3 laps under caution kind of kills the viewing pleasure and eats up time. You know, the thing that younger people don't like to waste and one of the 1532 reasons (LOL) that viewership in a key demo is down.
 
The same way I watch cautions due to all other reasons: as unavoidable costs of watching a race. We have cautions for lots of reasons, but you seem hung up on stage cautions as if there was a direct connection between those and improvements in hardware durability.

Do I wish they were gone? Sure, the same way I wish it would never rain, or that balloons wouldn't blow across the track, or that critters wouldn't scamper out, or parts wouldn't fall off cars. Cautions due to that last one have been reduced by the 6-minute rule and by improving engines and tires to reduce failures; I can only hope regarding the others.

You've missed the point of my post. I could care less if we have legitimate cautions. Matter of fact, I'd love to have cautions due to engine failures, tires that blow, and bumping/chrome bumpers be laid to other drivers. That's what used to separate NASCAR from Indy and F1.
 
You've missed the point of my post. I could care less if we have legitimate cautions. Matter of fact, I'd love to have cautions due to engine failures, tires that blow, and bumping/chrome bumpers be laid to other drivers. That's what used to separate NASCAR from Indy and F1.
I got your point - you like cautions. My point all along has been I don't. You're the one asking if I felt any differently about stage cautions vs. any others. I don't.
 
Nothing wrong with organic caution flags such as tire wear, engine failures, debris from racing hard. I don't have a huge issue with stage cautions, but they should be quickie yellows.
 
You've missed the point of my post. I could care less if we have legitimate cautions. Matter of fact, I'd love to have cautions due to engine failures, tires that blow, and bumping/chrome bumpers be laid to other drivers. That's what used to separate NASCAR from Indy and F1.

I must say that I wholeheartedly agree with your original point. I'm not a fan of cautions however, I do miss the suspense of teams being able to push the limits of their equipment through tuning and gearing! (i.e. racing) If a certain team had a rocket you always had to wonder if it was going to make it until the end. That "drama" has been taken from us.

Side note: I also like the slower stops and the possibility of racing in the rain. (and the possibility of one race a year on dirt)
So there's that.
 
well they complained about the cautions before, did you really think it would be any different with the other?
Of course. Now you know when to take a leak, let the dog out, grab a fresh beer and get back in your seat.
 
- If NASCAR wants to be viewed as something outside of the WWE then "mysterious debris" cautions shouldn't have ever been a part of the sport. That is an outside entity artificially manipulating a (wink wink) "sport".

- Caution lap complaints might go down if they NASCAR would start the race the next lap after a return from commercials. Sitting and watching 2 or 3 laps under caution kind of kills the viewing pleasure and eats up time. You know, the thing that younger people don't like to waste and one of the 1532 reasons (LOL) that viewership in a key demo is down.
I agree but many drivers try to get ahead and we go around while they take their position.
So when a stage is won throw the checker and the yellow. All teams line up per position, any driver playing games, black flag him, throw the green and only then open the pits.
 
So when a stage is won throw the checker and the yellow.
Or just stay green and keep racing. That eliminates having to line them back up.

I guess I'm willing to accept missing a few laps of green as the price of having the racing continue during a commercial, even if I can't see it.
 
The purpose of the stage is TO line them back up. The long delay is to allow TV to runs some ads.
 
And the delay between heats at all the small tracks around the country must be caused by Nascar as well???????
Heats are individual races, with different drivers in each heat. Stages are interruptions to one single race with the same guys all the way through.

Apples and oranges.
 
When this first happened, everyone seemed certain MTJ was going to the #19 and we were just waiting for the official announcement. But here we are three weeks later, and nothing has been announced. o_O
 
When this first happened, everyone seemed certain MTJ was going to the #19 and we were just waiting for the official announcement. But here we are three weeks later, and nothing has been announced. o_O
I was sure Martin said he signed and didn't Vassar say so as well?
 
When this first happened, everyone seemed certain MTJ was going to the #19 and we were just waiting for the official announcement. But here we are three weeks later, and nothing has been announced. o_O

I think that something very interesting is brewing in the Toyota camp, but I have no idea what it is. David Wilson said on NASCAR Radio yesterday that they will have 5 cars maybe more next year. It is very un-Toyota-like to go this deep without an announcement of this magnitude. Maybe it's just the 95, but I have no idea who will be in it. I don't see them signing a couple of single car teams (don't know who other than the 95 would be involved), so they might be chasing a two car team (again, no idea). Crazy stuff.
 
I think that something very interesting is brewing in the Toyota camp, but I have no idea what it is. David Wilson said on NASCAR Radio yesterday that they will have 5 cars maybe more next year. It is very un-Toyota-like to go this deep without an announcement of this magnitude. Maybe it's just the 95, but I have no idea who will be in it. I don't see them signing a couple of single car teams (don't know who other than the 95 would be involved), so they might be chasing a two car team (again, no idea). Crazy stuff.
Purely my speculation, but given Daugherty’s comments on the team not improving enough in the statement about AJ, could they switch? With Preece coming on board (allegedly)...

Preece/Buescher wouldn’t be a bad combo to add...
 
Maybe BellSouth Mobility will sponsor MTJ
They'd have to run the rainbow
220px-JoeNemechek1997Pocono.jpg
 
A long time ago NASCAR seemed like real racing. And by real I mean it was a real test of endurance. Only the best made it to the end. The points system ephasized consistency and longevity. Every race and every position counted. Drivers were forced to stay out with wrecked cars for points. There was none of this stage racing crap, and the championship was actually something to look forward to.

This is all gone, and is a big reason why NASCAR is dying a slow painful death.
 
A long time ago NASCAR seemed like real racing. And by real I mean it was a real test of endurance. Only the best made it to the end. The points system ephasized consistency and longevity. Every race and every position counted. Drivers were forced to stay out with wrecked cars for points. There was none of this stage racing crap, and the championship was actually something to look forward to.

This is all gone, and is a big reason why NASCAR is dying a slow painful death.

upload_2018-9-27_17-21-8.jpeg
 
Purely my speculation, but given Daugherty’s comments on the team not improving enough in the statement about AJ, could they switch? With Preece coming on board (allegedly)...

Preece/Buescher wouldn’t be a bad combo to add...

I would love it, but I thought Daugherty basically said that they were staying with Chevy on NASCAR Radio....
 
The story behind the fall of Furniture Row
Compounding factors, challenging NASCAR ownership model lead to departure of series champ Furniture Row Racing.


https://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com...agues-and-Governing-Bodies/Furniture-Row.aspx

Barney Visser has always been a bit of a maverick.

When he launched his NASCAR team in 2005, he shunned the sport’s North Carolina race hub and instead set up shop in Denver, headquarters to his Furniture Row retail empire. No other NASCAR team is based west of the Mississippi.

Conventional wisdom said the team could never be successful given its remote location, but Visser eventually formed an alliance with one of the sport’s top teams, which provided his Furniture Row Racing with the cars and technology it needed to be competitive.

By the end of the 2017 season, Furniture Row Racing had surprised everyone and won the Monster Energy NASCAR Cup Series championship.

It’s a captivating beat-the-odds story, only it doesn’t have a happy ending. Instead, it’s a story of how a perfect storm of factors can wreck the best plans, how alliances can get complicated, and how a sport’s ownership model is getting ever tougher to make work.

FRR executives declined to comment, so this account is based on conversations with several people close to the team, plus other key industry executives.

When Visser first came into NASCAR in 2005, he used his Furniture Row retail chain not only as the team’s name but also as its primary sponsor, an arrangement some team owners use until they can land external funding. FRR’s black matte No. 78 paint scheme quickly became recognizable to NASCAR fans.

Like most new teams in NASCAR, Furniture Row got off to a slow start, with its first win not coming until 2011 with Regan Smith as the driver at Darlington Raceway.

But with its Denver base, FRR began to build a blueprint for how NASCAR could help grow the sport across the U.S. by having teams based outside of the Carolinas. FRR developed what eventually turned into a significant fan following in the Denver and greater Colorado area, with everything from routine social media shoutouts from the Broncos and general manager John Elway, to often having around 100 people waiting for tours on the day the team hosted them each week.

Visser’s maverick streak reached beyond the team’s location. While he’s respected by the industry, he opted against joining the Race Team Alliance, the coalition of NASCAR teams that each pay a mid-five-figure annual fee in order to be included. The group works with NASCAR to find ways to improve the sport and lower the costs to compete, and only a handful of teams have opted to not be in it. Visser declined to take on the added expense.

That’s not to say that Visser and FRR shunned other teams. Realizing the challenge of staying ahead of technology, and the cost of research and development, the team partnered with Joe Gibbs Racing in 2016 to build the team’s chassis and provide other support including pit crews. Such arrangements are commonplace in the sport and the relationship greatly improved FRR’s ability to compete with the sport’s top pedigree: multicar teams owned by Gibbs, Rick Hendrick, Richard Childress, Jack Roush, Roger Penske and Chip Ganassi. Through nearly 15 years racing, heading into last weekend’s race at Talladega, Furniture Row had 18 wins overall, with 16 of them coming in the last three seasons.

The pinnacle came in 2017, when the dominant Martin Truex Jr. drove to the Monster Energy Series championship after winning eight races.

FRR had firmly planted its flag.

Fresh from the momentum of winning the championship, FRR looked ahead to the 2018 season and the next chapter of its success.

Instead, things quickly began to unravel.

This past summer, nearly midway into the 10-month 2018 Monster Energy Series season, FRR was in renewal talks with sponsor 5-hour Energy, which split sponsorship on the team’s car this year mainly with Bass Pro Shops and to a lesser extent Auto-Owners Insurance.

5-hour had joined in 2017, and after winning the championship the team was optimistic of getting a renewal deal done. But the sponsor pivoted and informed FRR that it would not return after this season. Suddenly, FRR had a massive $10 million annual hole in its coffers it would need to fill if it wanted to run another season. NASCAR teams rely on sponsorship for about 75 to 85 percent of their annual revenue.

The precise reasoning of 5-hour’s reversal was never confirmed by the sponsor’s parent company, Living Essentials, other than to say it was a marketing decision.

The timing was brutal. Normally, sponsors give teams as much notice as possible, often around a full year, given the long decision-making process brands face in making investments of this level.

As NASCAR President Steve Phelps said, “having a July announcement with a major sponsor leaving made it difficult for sure.”

The loss of the key sponsor was amplified by a change in FRR’s relationship with Joe Gibbs Racing. After FRR won a championship last year, Joe Gibbs Racing saw the deal — set to expire after this year — as undervalued and asked for an increase in the range of $10 million to $12 million annually, or around a threefold jump from the $3 million to $4 million FRR had been paying, sources say. Joe Gibbs Racing executives would not comment for this story.

The sharp increase raised eyebrows in the garage, particularly with it coming at a time when FRR was struggling to make ends meet. But history in NASCAR has shown that when the smaller team buying parts from a bigger team starts to beat that bigger team, the bigger team will naturally feel that its services have gone up in value. For example, Hendrick Motorsports supplied chassis and engines to Stewart-Haas Racing starting in 2009, but Stewart-Haas eventually started winning championships in Hendrick’s equipment, and the relationship eroded and eventually ended in 2016.

FRR unleashed a sponsorship hunt as soon as it found out about the 5-hour move, including pitching local Colorado-based companies such as Molson Coors, but came up empty. Visser also didn’t want to go back to having to use Furniture Row as the main sponsor again and tie up so much of the retailer’s marketing budget on the one venture. Visser told ESPN that while his family initially saw using the company’s logo on the car as a marketing investment, NASCAR’s “TV audience has been falling off a little bit,” making the Furniture Row sponsorship “a little tougher to justify.” Visser’s outspoken comments were unusual in that an owner called out the sport’s ratings challenges.

“It shows that even billionaires can get tired of writing checks,” said Rob Kauffman, chairman of the Race Team Alliance and co-owner of Chip Ganassi Racing, who is not close to Visser. “Stock car racing would have a more sustainable model if it was structured like other professional sports.”

By mid-August, with no new sponsorship to speak of, Visser looked at a possible deal with NASCAR Xfinity/Truck series team GMS Racing that would have seen Visser sell FRR’s assets to GMS, which would have continued running the No. 78 team in the Monster Energy Series. But that deal was eventually nixed, something sources close to the matter attributed in part to the new terms of FRR’s technical alliance with Joe Gibbs Racing, which GMS decided were just too high.

By the end of August, with FRR running out of options to continue, Truex and his management were granted permission by Visser to look elsewhere and began talks with Joe Gibbs Racing that will see him and longtime corporate backer Bass Pro Shops join the storied NASCAR team next year. The move caught some people in the garage by surprise, since it all but assured that Furniture Row would close down. But others noted that this sort of hyper-competitive environment among the teams is just part and parcel of NASCAR.

In September, with it set to lose Bass Pro Shops and Truex for 2019, FRR announced it would shut down after this year’s season. Its official news release cited the lack of sponsorship and the impact of the increased fee for the alliance with Joe Gibbs Racing.

Visser later tried to downplay that relationship, telling ESPN that the fee increase wasn’t “ridiculous,” and that the sides had been close to extending the deal before 5-hour pulled out.

NASCAR insiders were already well aware that the sport’s team ownership model was in need of major changes. The sanctioning body and teams have been meeting frequently for years to try to address the most pressing issues, which are rising costs and an over-reliance on sponsorship.

Nonetheless, FRR’s announcement — that a Monster Energy champion just a year earlier would be forced to shut down shortly after losing one key sponsor — has brought about an added layer of soul-searching in the sport. And for its part, FRR has taken to the grim duty of starting to shut down its operations. Crew members are looking for jobs that will likely see them get uprooted to North Carolina if they want to stay in the NASCAR industry. The team, which employs 60 to 70 people, even recently announced that it would no longer be offering shop tours as it gets ready to close.

“We don’t want to see owners leave or switch like that — particularly when you have someone who is your reigning owner of your champion,” Phelps said. “With that said, there are circumstances that happened as part of [Visser’s] deal from an expense and sponsorship standpoint that he didn’t feel he could make work, family stuff, etc. Do I think it’s systemic [of wider ownership problems in NASCAR]? I don’t.”
 
Joe Gibbs is a classless piece of sh!t.

Did you hear anything in there that was an actual quote from an actual source, or just the industry insider bull****. You really going to put your faith in Adam Stern? Really. That article is a classless piece of ****, but you will believe what you believe.
 
Did you hear anything in there that was an actual quote from an actual source, or just the industry insider bull****. You really going to put your faith in Adam Stern? Really. That article is a classless piece of sh!t, but you will believe what you believe.

If only I could be as unbiased as you are.
 
That last bit is alarming by Phelps, it shows just how difficult it is to retain sponsors in the sport. NASCAR has a long and grueling schedule that you might as well says that works year-round tbh. NASCAR has a short off-season from early November to early February and the money needed to keep operations up and running are quite enamoring. I would like to see how money is divided between the teams with sponsor money and TV money, etc. Phelps needs to realize the champions from last year are shutting down shop completely, that's freaking scary.

Sponsors come and go, but 5-Hour was the primary sponsor of the organization and 10-12 million dollars is hard to replace. Even with Bass Pro/Tracker/NRA and Auto Owners... Its just was not worth Barney keeping the doors open. Sponsors costs are different for every team, but when you're a front-runner having to rebuild again if JGR left. I don't blame Barney a bit for his move to shut the team down, I feel for the guys who have to move back to North Carolina to find work again.
 
If the article is true then JGR nor Joe Gibbs personally had anything to with Barney closing the doors. JGR could have not charged the 78'team anything and it would still not be racing next year.

I don't blame JGR for jacking up the alliance price to FRR as they were supplying something extremely valuable. The contract between the 2 entities had expired so it wasn't as if JGR did anything illegal or morally wrong by setting new terms.
 
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