78 FRR is done

tclarson said:
It will be interesting to see what happens there but I have read somewhere that Arris might be tied to JGR and not Suarez. Maybe someone else can confirm that.
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I would love to know the answer to that too. I am just going off how Slim did it in Grand Am. I don't think Ganassi EVER wanted Rojas as a driver, although he DID improve somewhat eventually, but with the Telmex money came Rojas. I guess I would be shocked if the 19 car deal was any different. Xfinity title or not, does Suarez get that ride when he did WITHOUT the Arris money being tied to him?
 
I suspect if IndyCar ran 36 races instead of 17, and ran more 400- and 500- mile races instead of mostly 200- to 250-milers, their budgets would be around $10M too.
 
Formerjackman said:
Xfinity title or not, does Suarez get that ride when he did WITHOUT the Arris money being tied to him?
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Might as well ask if he'd been put in the X car in the first place without the money.

With that said, let's remember Daniel was moved up to the #19 when Edwards abruptly left. Who knows who JGR might have put in the seat if they'd have had more time to look and Jones wasn't already committed to the #77? Another year or two in X and -maybe- Daniel would have been able to score a Cup seat without a sugar daddy.

Or not. :D
 
Towmater said:
OK, then there isn't a fix. The ownership in the sport will continue to leave. A 43 car field turns into a 40 car field. A 40 car field turns into a 38 car field. A 38 car field turns into a 35 car field and then we are Indy car. You know, the place where you can field a team for $ 3 million dollars instead of NASCARland where it costs $ 10 to 20 million.
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Yes that's exactly where NASCAR is headed.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
 
Formerjackman said:
I don't think Ganassi EVER wanted Rojas as a driver, although he DID improve somewhat eventually,
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I was pleased Scott Pruett ("Hi to my family!") was able to score a title while dragging Memo's butt around. The boy could be tough on hardware in a series where that's isn't considered a normal part of the learning curve.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
I was pleased Scott Pruett ("Hi to my family!") was able to score a title while dragging Memo's butt around. The boy could be tough on hardware in a series where that's isn't considered a normal part of the learning curve.
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Yeah, when Memo started, he was about one step ahead of Tracy Krohn......
 
3wideinturn1 said:
Anyone bashing JGR clearly doesn’t understand modern day economics...FRR was a main source of competition within their industry. So they made the decision to raise the price. Essentially, it works out to be a buyout. They’ve now absorbed a main competitor and assumed their costs without taking on bad debt, banking on the future revenue/earnings/performance that team will bring in. It was a difficult but also very shrewd move by JGR.

I just wonder how Toyota/TRD views it. Perhaps they view as lateral, they had 5 factory teams and only 4 were really competitive. That number should continue with Suarez being shuffled aside. @Revman what are your thoughts?
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Thank You for the explanation Coach Gibbs.
 
kk5fan said:
Thank You for the explanation Coach Gibbs.
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Yeah, if they were afraid of the competition, they shouldn't have formed an alliance in the first place. Roger Penske used to sell his Indycar stuff to other teams, and sometimes he got beaten by it. (See Patrick Racing, 1989) He was a major part of Ilmor, but let them lease engines to his biggest competitors and was beaten at Indy three times by them, but I never heard HIM complain about any of it.
 
I know some don't like comparisons to stick and ball sports, but what would happen if, for example, the New England Patriots were allowed to buy out the Pittsburgh Steelers, take all of their best players and staff, and put PITT out of business?

NASCAR has to really think hard at the precedent being set here or they risk becoming known by even more fans as sports entertainment similar to the WWE.
 
kk5fan said:
I know some don't like comparisons to stick and ball sports,
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One reason I don't like them is because the comparisons are rarely 'apples to apples'.

In this case, deals between NFL teams are regulated by a central authority; deals between race teams aren't. Neither football team is an completely independent business; they couldn't switch to the CFL on whim or get started in the NFL without permission from the other owners. Mostly though, the Steelers don't pay an alliance fee to the Patriots so NE couldn't triple it to drive Pittsburgh out.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
One reason I don't like them is because the comparisons are rarely 'apples to apples'.

In this case, deals between NFL teams are regulated by a central authority; deals between race teams aren't. Neither football team is an completely independent business; they couldn't switch to the CFL on whim or get started in the NFL without permission from the other owners. Mostly though, the Steelers don't pay an alliance fee to the Patriots so NE couldn't triple it to drive Pittsburgh out.
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Understood but the principle's the same. JGR DIRECTLY forced a competitor out of business by manipulating the money of that team's budget. Nothing do to with anything on the track except Coach's boys were gettin' beat.
 
kk5fan said:
Understood but the principle's the same. JGR DIRECTLY forced a competitor out of business by manipulating the money of that team's budget. Nothing do to with anything on the track except Coach's boys were gettin' beat.
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Oh, I agree completely. I'm only pointing out why stick and ball comparisons are rarely valid.
 
gnomesayin said:
Just to get on record more clearly, I'm not apologizing for anything or anyone. I feel more like apologizing to Barney Visser, Joe Garone, etc. that they did just about everything right and still got screwed. I think this occurrence is a damn shame, and if it serves as a wake-up call to the industry, good. I personally find Toyota's and JGR's conduct in this instance to be highly distasteful, and I'm not just a reactionary Yoder hater.
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The Facebook fans are going nuts over this. Which I agree it is disgusting how it went down. But I think it’s MTJ’s best shot at staying competitive. Hope Martin doesn’t regret this move.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
That sounds as if you think Toyota regards Levine as comparable to Furniture Row. I don't see how Toyota can regard this as breaking even, even in the unlikely event of the entire #19 crew and all its cars and resources transferring to the #95 with Suarez.
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So if the whole team is in tact including driver and sponsor, who cares whose name is on the check as long as the checks cash.
This is just another move to get around the 4 car rule.
 
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well jgr can charge the 95 team the same money that they charged the 78,but with no chance of getting beat by them,win win if you are jgr and you get martin and cole,
 
Team Penske said:
So if the whole team is in tact including driver and sponsor, who cares whose name is on the check as long as the checks cash.
This is just another move to get around the 4 car rule.
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Do we know the whole team IS intact? I agree it's a way to dodge the 4-car rule. My question is whether Toyota is gaining or losing by trading Furniture Row for Levine? I don't see how it can be regarded an improvement or even breaking even.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Are you saying there's something wrong with that? I'm not sure what you're getting at. I enjoy IndyCar, especially when they aren't on ovals.
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Charlie, I like Indy car.

My point was that by not putting caps on the spending then the field will dwindle. It is already happening. Once we get to the point were NASCAR only has 25 teams that can get the funding to field a team while budgets reach levels that are ludicrous. Maybe at that point the owners will realize that out spending everyone else has put the sport in a situation where spending will have to be pulled back. In other words, they will have to be saved from themselves - (I think we are there now). Maybe then we can go back to a spending level like Indy car where a team can be put on the track and run a season for a much lower amount. Yes, I know the season is shorter and all the other reasons why it cost less. However, Indy did that to save the series. This past Indy 500 had some interesting things happen during qualifying. When was the last time a driver near the top of the points was bumped out of the race in NASCAR (Again, I understand the rules and why that isn't going to happen)? However, it made qualifying pretty interesting to watch for the Indy 500. I can't remember the last time I cared about qualifying in NASCAR. Top NASCAR teams don't seem to be hampered if they have to start from the back of the field let alone in 15th and they are never bumped out of a race.

Personally, I'm tired of watching NASCAR races where engines don't fail, tires don't blow, and cars can't touch one another because it might mess up the aerodynamics in a sport that used to have all three happen in some races annually. NASCAR has become too perfect. (Can't wait for someone to weigh in and say that in Indy Car cars can't touch. No, really? For that poster, they should note that I stated I messed seeing that along with engines failing and tires blowing in NASCAR races).
 
Well, I clicked 'Like' to thank you for your response, even if I disagree with most of it.

I don't miss blown engines, blown tires, or anything else that results in laps being run under yellow instead of green.

As to a spending cap, I'm not sure how that could be enforced. The only basis I have for comparison are the salary caps of 'stick and ball' sports. Those caps cover only personnel expenses and the contracts are usually public. How would a spending cap in racing work?
 
I expect Nascar to start specking out more parts if they want to get a hold of the insanity of teams finding a tic of advantage and then doing their best to obsolete what they just built., most of the magic is happening out of sight under the car with the frame and their components. All of the manufacturers need to get together and settle on a common frame and their componets, and if they can't quit screwing with it, Nascar needs to find an out side vendor(s) to build them. They have done so with the trick oil coolers and radiators some teams were making. There is no need to have a car that costs ten times what one cost in the 80's. A good example are the pit guns that most of them went screaming about. Who cares now
 
@Charlie Spencer

If you don't miss laps being run under then yellow how do you watch stage racing? The yellow laps run after the stages kill the flow of the race. Those ads seem to go on and on even when we come back from the break/ads.

How would a spending cap work? People involved at all levels of the sport would have to agree to work together to get the costs of running a team under control. If you can get the billionaires and their egos that run/own football teams to come together to control cost for the betterment of football, then we should be able to do it in NASCAR.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
As to a spending cap, I'm not sure how that could be enforced. The only basis I have for comparison are the salary caps of 'stick and ball' sports. Those caps cover only personnel expenses and the contracts are usually public. How would a spending cap in racing work?
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To add to this, stick and ball sports leagues are only able to put salary caps in place because the players unions agree to it in their collective bargaining agreements (in exchange for things advantageous to the players of course). Pretty sure it wouldn't be legal to implement a salary cap in nascar. Idk how it would be possible to cap spending with the current ownership structure of Nascar. You'd have to completely change the structure to one where the team owners own Nascar operate their individual teams, and Nascar in turn owns the teams as divisions of Nascar with budgets set by Nascar. Only comparable model I know of is MLS
 
Much easier to control the expenses on the car. Both Xfinity and the Trucks have already done so, and in the trucks small one truck teams are doing pretty well without having a big sponsor. Competition is good also
 
Towmater said:
f you don't miss laps being run under then yellow how do you watch stage racing?
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I'm not sure what your point is. This isn't an 'either / or' situation. Disliking cautions due to hardware failures doesn't mean I enjoy them any better when they're scheduled. While we're at it, I don't like them due to rain or snow or debris either. I have to accept them as part of the sport.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Do we know the whole team IS intact? I agree it's a way to dodge the 4-car rule. My question is whether Toyota is gaining or losing by trading Furniture Row for Levine? I don't see how it can be regarded an improvement or even breaking even.
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I guess that depends on who is easier to deal with Barney or Levine.
Barney is on top and making demands.
Levine is on the bottom trying to get to top 20. That could be possible just using JGR
used cars. That way he doesn't need much in the expenses of a shop and voila Joe now has 5 cars. Add another car to that team for a R&D car and you now have room for Bell.
 
Team Penske said:
I guess that depends on who is easier to deal with Barney or Levine.
Barney is on top and making demands.
Levine is on the bottom trying to get to top 20. That could be possible just using JGR
used cars. That way he doesn't need much in the expenses of a shop and voila Joe now has 5 cars. Add another car to that team for a R&D car and you now have room for Bell.
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One more time: I'm asking how this works out for Toyota, not Gibbs or Levine. I don't see how they can view this 'trade' favorably; the #78 and #95 aren't comparable.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
One more time: I'm asking how this works out for Toyota, not Gibbs or Levine. I don't see how they can view this 'trade' favorably; the #78 and #95 aren't comparable.
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I guess that depends on who is easier to deal with Barney or Levine.
Barney is on top and making demands.
There is the part that makes the deal better for Toyota and it also keeps Joe happy.
Toyota sure didn't didn't use their muscle to help MWR.
 
I wonder if Gibbs has full funding this season based on the amount of the increase for support they accessed he 78 team.
 
Has it been officially announced that Truex is going to the 19 car? I haven't seen anything, but maybe I missed it.
 
And the Preacher said;

"Visser, We must raiseth your tithe to the Church of Gibbs on the dawn of the year that cometh".

Visser was not in kind spirits about this. "Preacher, this will smite the Team of the Furniture Row and many will suffer. Why must it be? If this is so we will ceaseth to exist!"

And the Preacher said; "All is not fair in life Visser, and since you kicketh our asses we must respond".

The Preacher went to the Son of Truex and The Pearn and offered them a prize. A prize they could not resist. Thus the Son of Truex and The Pearn came to be in the employ of the Preacher, and the Team of the Furniture Row was no more.

All Hail The Preacher!
 
StandOnIt said:
Friday 5: Furniture Row Racing’s demise is a fate others know too well

SPEEDWAY, Ind. — The names have changed but the stories haven’t when it comes to the tale of Furniture Row Racing and all the teams before it that faded away.

https://nascar.nbcsports.com/2018/0...acings-demise-is-a-fate-others-know-too-well/
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The weak point of this article is that none of the other teams mentioned were defending Cup champions. Some of them (Ginn, BK, Finch) were weak sisters rarely competitive away from plate races.
 
kk5fan said:
And the Preacher said; "All is not fair in life Visser, and since you kicketh our asses we must respond".
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kicketh our asses.
!!!!!

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Charlie Spencer said:
I'm not sure what your point is. This isn't an 'either / or' situation. Disliking cautions due to hardware failures doesn't mean I enjoy them any better when they're scheduled. While we're at it, I don't like them due to rain or snow or debris either. I have to accept them as part of the sport.
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You stated that you liked my post but didn't agree with it because you didn't like anything that would add caution laps to a race. I replied directly to your comment, pointed out that we get endless laps run under caution via stage racing, and asked how you could enjoy races with the stages in them. It seems pretty clear to me what my point was. Thus -

Stage racing has tons of artificially added yellow laps.
According to your post, you don't like anything that adds caution laps to a race.
My question - If you don't like laps being run under then yellow how do you watch stage racing?

If the original post wasn't clear enough I hope this one brought it into focus for you.
 
Towmater said:
If you don't like laps being run under then yellow how do you watch stage racing?
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The same way I watch cautions due to all other reasons: as unavoidable costs of watching a race. We have cautions for lots of reasons, but you seem hung up on stage cautions as if there was a direct connection between those and improvements in hardware durability.

Do I wish they were gone? Sure, the same way I wish it would never rain, or that balloons wouldn't blow across the track, or that critters wouldn't scamper out, or parts wouldn't fall off cars. Cautions due to that last one have been reduced by the 6-minute rule and by improving engines and tires to reduce failures; I can only hope regarding the others.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
The same way I watch cautions due to all other reasons: as unavoidable costs of watching a race. We have cautions for lots of reasons, but you seem hung up on stage cautions as if there was a direct connection between those and improvements in hardware durability.

Do I wish they were gone? Sure, the same way I wish it would never rain, or that balloons wouldn't blow across the track, or that critters wouldn't scamper out, or parts wouldn't fall off cars. Cautions due to that last one have been reduced by the 6-minute rule and by improving engines and tires to reduce failures; I can only hope regarding the others.
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I would disagree that we have had fewer cautions for parts falling off cars. All the six minute rule did was that instead of taking the car to the garage and fixing it properly, they now try to hold stuff on with a bunch of tape. In the world of unintended consequences, I think the potential for an even MORE serious problem was created by this rule. I have NEVER been in favor of it.
 
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