78 FRR is done

Towmater said:
It is interesting that people lay this at Gibb's feet but won't aim any of the blame at 5 Hour leaving. You know, the sponsor, that was paying the bills and is leaving NASCAR.
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That's because @StandOnIt hates Coach. Easy.
 
Truex_rox said:
I see LFR having its wings clipped by JGR, so to speak, before it gets too competitive. It will be sort of like the relationship between Red Bull and Toro Rosso that we see in F1. Jmo.
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Toyota isn't okay running 25th for long. You are sipping the JGR conspiracy Kool-Aid.
 
gnomesayin said:
Most who have addressed the matter have mentioned 5-hour Energy's departure and Gibbs' increasing the alliance cost as dual factors. As posted above by @FLRacingFan, one was effectively a $10 million annual hit, and the other around an $8 million annual cost increase. Both are certainly relevant.

If you prefer to read message board posts criticizing the actions of an "energy shot" business as opposed to those critical of a racing team, maybe you should find a caffeinated beverage forum for that kind of discussion.
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....and yet the most crucial player, Barney Visser himself, says that the JGR costs had nothing to do with it. :owquitit:
 
Kiante said:
LFR is going to be a factor down the line, but seeing where FRR was after 2015 and where LFR is now, its going to be a while.

I wonder how much the Levine family is paying for this partnership?
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I agree on LFR, and it will be fun to watch them grow. I am sure that they are getting plenty of Toyota help.
 
Revman said:
....and yet the most crucial player, Barney Visser himself, says that the JGR costs had nothing to do with it. :owquitit:
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I think you're capable of a rational discussion on the subject. A team sunk by a $10 million dollar loss in sponsorship revenue is not completely unaffected by an $8 million cost increase.

It was both. Why is this even hard?
 
gnomesayin said:
I think you're capable of a rational discussion on the subject. A team sunk by a $10 million dollar loss in sponsorship revenue is not completely unaffected by an $8 million cost increase.
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I think I am too....Why the hell would Barney say that? He doesn't kiss ass. Flies in the face of conventional wisdom. Pretty much does his own thing. Help me with this....Why would he say that?.....and where are you getting your 8 million figure?
 
Revman said:
I think I am too....Why the hell would Barney say that? He doesn't kiss ass. Flies in the face of conventional wisdom. Pretty much does his own thing. Help me with this....Why would he say that?.....and where are you getting your 8 million figure?
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got an oh well when the preacher yanked two of his best pit crew from the 78 going down the stretch last year..ok
 
My 2¢, when the current champions' team can't get sponsors to continue what does that have to say about the sports health???
 
Bobw said:
My 2¢, when the current champions' team can't get sponsors to continue what does that have to say about the sports health???
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It isn't tax payer funded? or having to caugh up 18, 20 million on short notice isn't easy by yourself? :idunno:
 
This alliance stuff is tricky business. Ya got to know who you are going to get in bed with. When they hold parts and pieces in ransom and all the cards including the pit crew? it's live or die depending on the situation. Gibbs, and it could be with help from Toyota, have proven they want to control everything and they don't care who it effects. Some who have been conditioned well will say oh that's just business, others will say dirty pool and they didn't help the sport or mankind in general and after the smoke cleared they ruined a small car owner and his employees. Insult to injury, after they ruin a really good team, they go out and romance another small team. Alliances have come and gone, but nothing compares to this.
 
Allenbaba said:
JGR's increase was absolutely, positively, without a doubt the biggest reason FRR is gone today. That's a fact jack.
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My gut feeling was that Visser could have and was reluctantly preparing to absorb one or the other, but simply was not willing to absorb both. I imagine that took a break even or a slight loss proposition and turned it into a financial black hole. If we can safely assume that the new deal with the 95 car is for less money than what they were asking from Furniture Row, that just makes JGR look BAD. I also notice that JGR has been exceptionally silent during this whole event. I guess they just don't want to talk about what transpired. Ultimately, if you're afraid of getting outrun with your own equipment, then don't form alliances. If you are selling goods and services, you have to do it in good faith, which means giving the customer the best you can offer, and they if get as much or more out of it as you do, then tough sh**.
 
If it is true that JGR raising the alliance fee was the biggest reason for FRR’s shutdown then shame on Barney for lying.

Overall I’m sure Barney would have liked to continue but he still has got to be happy with his Faustian move. No alliance with JGR means no championship and much fewer race wins so it worked out well all things considered.
 
IanMcVittie said:
If it is true that JGR raising the alliance fee was the biggest reason for FRR’s shutdown then shame on Barney for lying.
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My guess is that Visser preferred not to stir up more crap himself when he commented in that interview. He is ultimately responsible for the decision to shut down, and knows this on some level. Many were already speculating about JGR's actions, he downplayed it. I never took those remarks as gospel, but as his way of amicably dealing with a difficult question.

Visser's team is still trying to race for a championship in 2018 as a JGR and Toyota customer, and people are incredulously asking why he might have sidestepped the topic? Seriously?
 
gnomesayin said:
My guess is that Visser preferred not to stir up more crap himself when he commented in that interview. He is ultimately responsible for the decision to shut down, and knows this on some level. Many were already speculating about JGR's actions, he downplayed it. I never took those remarks as gospel, but as his way of amicably dealing with a difficult question.

Visser's team is still trying to race for a championship in 2018 as a JGR and Toyota customer, and people are incredulously asking why he might have sidestepped the topic? Seriously?
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Very well said. Reading between the lines is a life skill that competent people have and use to navigate throughout life.

But when the truth is too much to bear it is a skill that can ignored by the otherwise competent.
 
Revman said:
What the hell does that tell you?
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That people that don't like Gibbs want to lay it all at his feet. They "conveniently" forget that the sponsor that was paying the bills decided to not only walk away from the sport's current champion, they decided to walk away from the sport. In blaming Gibbs they get to keep posting that everything in NASCARland is super wonderful, never been better and they can repost tweets about new affiliate sponsors (smaller dollars) attempting to fill in for the full-time ones that left.
 
gnomesayin said:
My guess is that Visser preferred not to stir up more crap himself when he commented in that interview. He is ultimately responsible for the decision to shut down, and knows this on some level. Many were already speculating about JGR's actions, he downplayed it. I never took those remarks as gospel, but as his way of amicably dealing with a difficult question.

Visser's team is still trying to race for a championship in 2018 as a JGR and Toyota customer, and people are incredulously asking why he might have sidestepped the topic? Seriously?
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You bring up some very good and valid points.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Sponsor come and go; it's the nature of the business. Senior management is there to make decisions that are in the company's best interest, not necessarily looking out for their marketing partners. 5 Hour's contract was up; it's not like they pulled a Nature's Bakery.
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I never stated they did nor implied anything you posted about.

From your post it makes the 78 Team's senior management look inept as they couldn't see the split headed for them. Mmmmm, that makes Gibb's even less of a bad guy. Thanks!
 
Towmater said:
That people that don't like Gibbs want to lay it all at his feet. They "conveniently" forget that the sponsor that was paying the bills decided to not only walk away from the sport's current champion, they decided to walk away from the sport. In blaming Gibbs they get to keep posting that everything in NASCARland is super wonderful, never been better and they can repost tweets about new affiliate sponsors (smaller dollars) attempting to fill in for the full-time ones that left.
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I don’t see this issue as people trying to put a happy face on Nascar’s issues. I think it is more a case of people having a hearty dislike for Joe Gibbs.

I don’t have an opinion on Joe Gibbs personally and I don’t know how involved he is with JGR. I will say that JGR was under no legal or moral obligation to help keep FRR afloat but I am sure others feel differently about it. One thing I know is squabbling about it won’t resolve anything.
 
Towmater said:
I never stated they did nor implied anything you posted about.

From your post it makes the 78 Team's senior management look inept as they couldn't see the split headed for them. Mmmmm, that makes Gibb's even less of a bad guy. Thanks!
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I was referring to the senior management at 5 Hour. My apologies for any confusion.
 
IanMcVittie said:
I don’t see this issue as people trying to put a happy face on Nascar’s issues. I think it is more a case of people having a hearty dislike for Joe Gibbs.

I don’t have an opinion on Joe Gibbs personally and I don’t know how involved he is with JGR. I will say that JGR was under no legal or moral obligation to help keep FRR afloat but I am sure others feel differently about it. One thing I know is squabbling about it won’t resolve anything.
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Don't you think it is kind of telling that they have an issue with a guy who came into the sport after the "major players" were established, built his team into a powerhouse, and still remains in the sport while they don't find fault with the companies that used to sponsor teams and have walked away.

I don't even like JGR or any of their drivers and can see that JGR did the above.
 
IanMcVittie said:
I don’t have an opinion on Joe Gibbs personally and I don’t know how involved he is with JGR.
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I admit that I share some of the skepticism regarding Coach Gibbs' over the top piousness through the years, and I tend to enjoy jokes poking fun at that. However, on the whole, I'm glad for Gibbs' presence in NASCAR and the other motorsports he has been involved in, and I have no particular grudge against JGR. I have no more fondness for Rick Hendrick or Gene Haas than him.

I do not view JGR's or Toyota's actions with regard to FRR's demise favorably. But racing is a harsh business, and this will pass.
 
Allenbaba said:
JGR's increase was absolutely, positively, without a doubt the biggest reason FRR is gone today. That's a fact jack.
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I'll go with Barney. Seems like the kind of guy who can be taken on his word. There are two other manufacturers. He chose neither.
 
So @Revman since you are so hung up about sources, where are yours to refute any of these claims? You seem to think all this is BS, why exactly? Do you work for TRD? Do you know Joe Gibbs and Barney Visser personally?
 
2 Sweet said:
So @Revman since you are so hung up about sources, where are yours to refute any of these claims? You seem to think all this is BS, why exactly? Do you work for TRD? Do you know Joe Gibbs and Barney Visser personally?
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So, maybe that's how a board works.....pull stuff out of your ass, and make people prove you wrong. Okay. Got it.
 
Revman said:
Oh, Toyota was involved? Cite your source....or are we just piling on? Nevermind, I know the answer.
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Asking questions then saying "never mind" in the next breath is passive aggressive nonsense. I'm not sure what I stated that has you so riled up. I have my opinions and drew inferences based on what has been reported, you have other opinions.

In one post you're "sure that LFR will be getting plenty of Toyota help" (without any source), in the next it is outlandish for me to bring up Toyota's lack of initiative to help FRR survive when they were on the brink.

Come on, this is silly. You have your loyalties and that is fine. I don't like how this situation went down, and that's really all there is to it. I have no eternal grudge against Toyota.
 
Revman said:
I'll go with Barney. Seems like the kind of guy who can be taken on his word. There are two other manufacturers. He chose neither.
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Barney himself said the 3 fold rise in costs for the alliance was one of the reasons he's closing the doors.
 
Let me stir this cesspool a litte. IMO...what we have here is a failure to communicate. :rolleyes:

Barney starts a race team. Stumbles along spending the family fortune with not much positive result. Not bad but not great either.

Barney gets chance to form an alliance with a major player in the sport and grabs it.

Barney decides to pass on the RTA. Big mistake...HUGE! <Pretty Woman reference>

Barney has heart attack. Family says WTF are you doing spending all OUR money. Says no more. STOP!!!

JGR is in business selling their products. Decide the product is underpriced. Raise price.

5 hour energy sees NASCAR is a sinking ship. Gets tired of adding sump pumps.

Barney, with strong encouragement from his family, says screw it I'm out!

Turn out the lights the party's over.:partytime

[/thread]
 
Revman said:
So, maybe that's how a board works.....pull stuff out of your ass, and make people prove you wrong. Okay. Got it.
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Well, since you're so quick to dismiss Adam Stern or Allenbaba or whoever dares to paint Gibbs/Toyota in a bad light, then I would figure you might know more to the story and have a source of your own :idunno:
 
Revman said:
Source? Nevermind.
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I don't think Source(s) when it comes to seeing it with my own eyes for years is that important. I will give ya a couple and you can shu shu them to your hearts content, but they happened. Way back when Tony formed his team, his best buddy and now a integral piece of his racing team Greg Zipadelli wasn't "allowed" to leave JGR racing for a year AND Tony had to agree with that before he was allowed to leave. Sounds awful similar to what they are doing to Suarez's sponsor Arris years later. Here's another, jerking two guys from the pit crew of another team that that team is paying for is at the very least unethical, and at the other end of the scale one could make a case for trying to fix the outcome of races.(which BTW was what JGR was trying to do when they crashed at Indy in the first place)
 
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