All-Star race experimentation receives mostly high marks

What's goofy with that survey is that O'Donnell said the package is designed for Pocono, Michigan, and Indianapolis and none of them are 1.5's :confused: I thought the low downforce package this year was doing well on most of the 1.5's excluding Charlotte. Hint: they are running those three races this year with the Xfinity package.
 
StandOnIt said:
What's goofy with that survey is that O'Donnell said the package is designed for Pocono, Michigan, and Indianapolis and none of them are 1.5's :confused: I thought the low downforce package this year was doing well on most of the 1.5's excluding Charlotte.
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I will have to agree, that's why I don't understand why Nascar wants to use plates? I've actually been pleasantly surprised for the most part that the racing has been better this year.
 
DIDIT said:
My son who used to be much more into NASCAR, but recently has become more of a casual observer and who had no idea about the new package being used for the All Star race sent me this text during the race "Wild racing...can't believe they got the cars to handle this way at Charlotte!!!" Someone previously wondered if we were not told about the package what would we be thinking of the race. Well, at least we know one opinion.
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Not hard to do. Hook a parachute up to every car and let er’ rip. It was obvious to me, an avid viewer, that they had atleast put RP’s on. I posted some examples why in the race thread.
 
kyle18fan said:
One that won't turn ?
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They need to make the splitter way smaller so the cars can actually pass the leader instead of you needing 2 cars to pass the leader or in the case of a non restricted engine, not stall out .4 seconds behind the leader
 
Mopardh9 said:
I will have to agree, that's why I don't understand why Nascar wants to use plates? I've actually been pleasantly surprised for the most part that the racing has been better this year.
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NASCAR has never really been the one leading the charge of the lower downforce brigade. Drivers were the ones mostly desiring that. Back in 2014 when they tested at Michigan their "prime" package featured a tall spoiler and dive planes. Lower downforce was like their third option.
 
Yeah well they are expanding trying a very similar package out in Xfinity cars this year. They first try and if it was the usual Indy race in cup last year without all of the drama, the Xfinity cars running the package at Indy as far as racing and competition goes was far better.
 
LewTheShoe said:
I agree, Snappy. Bob Pockrass has raised all the issues about restrictor plates as necessary safety devices (at Daytona and Talladega) versus a way to create a pack of cars strictly for entertainment.

Includes a poll at the end, too...

22% Yes, use plates at all 1.5ers
26% Maybe, at select 1.5ers
52% No, plates for Daytona/Talladega only.
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I found it interesting that he mentioned that it would impact drivers careers. If you think about it, how much value does a highly skilled driver like Kurt or Kyle Bush really have if the racing no longer requires that level of skill set to win. They could just plug in some pretty boy mid pack racer and have the same results for less money .
 
StandOnIt said:
Yeah well they are expanding trying a very similar package out in Xfinity cars this year. They first try and if it was the usual Indy race in cup last year without all of the drama, the Xfinity cars running the package at Indy as far as racing and competition goes was far better.
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Why try it when the racing has been better?:idunno:
 
NASCAR America: Jeff Burton says ‘NASCAR took a big swing with new aero package’
In a poll during Monday’s NASCAR America segment, fans overwhelmingly supported the new aero package used in the All-Star Race. Analyst Jeff Burton was one of those who voted yes to the question of whether it should be used again this year.
“You could tell (the drivers) were kind of surprised they liked it,” Burton continued.

“You could hear them hesitantly saying, ‘Yeah, I kind of liked it,’ but they were afraid to admit it because it wasn’t what they really want to do.”

https://nascar.nbcsports.com/2018/0...ascar-took-a-big-swing-with-new-aero-package/
 
StandOnIt said:
What's goofy with that survey is that O'Donnell said the package is designed for Pocono, Michigan, and Indianapolis and none of them are 1.5's :confused: I thought the low downforce package this year was doing well on most of the 1.5's excluding Charlotte. Hint: they are running those three races this year with the Xfinity package.
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Yeah, because this package was first tested at Indy and pretty much expressly designed to mimic IndyCar racing. Those three tracks were also originally designed for Champ/Indycar too so it makes sense. Charlotte, Chicago, Kentucky are high-banked NASCAR tracks first and foremost.
 
I don't know about mimic. If you mean trying to get some passing in the race yeah. IndyCar has push to pass, entirely different system but it is for the same purpose. F-1 has the DRS system trying to do the same thing.
 
No, if you watched the xfinity race at Indy last year it was pretty much a copy of the Indy 500 but with stock cars. Indycar doesn't use push to pass on ovals BTW, that's not how they achieve 40+ passes for the lead at indy and Pocono. IndyCars have a much higher downforce/horsepower ratio than stock cars (fun fact, they make less HP than a cup car) and also as a result put out a ton more drag. So when NASCAR wanted a good race at Indy, what did they do? Cut HP, upped downforce, added drag. Go figure, it worked.

Maybe tailoring the cars to each track is the right way to go. In which case, I still don't think this package is the solution to the high-banked 1.5 miler.
 
I think the package will be more successful on the tracks they are using it for this year for the Xfinity races, tracks with long straightaways. The Xfinity teams have had a year to work with it, to mess it up as Kez says. We'll see in a week and a half
 
I was entertained by what I saw on Saturday. (as was the vast majority of fans who responded to the polls I saw). It's the first time I've been entertained by Cup racing at Charlotte in a very long time. And that includes 2012 when I attended the ASR. I understand why the purists have objections. But I also understand that NASCAR has been dying a slow miserable death for the past 10+ years. I say that NASCAR gives the people what they want which is apparently races that are entertaining. Perhaps some heated rivalries will develop which is what it will take to right the ship.
 
hendrickfreak said:
They need to make the splitter way smaller so the cars can actually pass the leader instead of you needing 2 cars to pass the leader or in the case of a non restricted engine, not stall out .4 seconds behind the leader
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A smaller splitter reduces front downforce.

How does that help a car that has already lost front downforce in the turbulent air spilling off the car ahead?
 
NBC reporter Nate Ryan calls the All Star rules "socialized racing." I think he is right... taking from the fast guys, giving to the slow guys.
Nate Ryan said:
Though there is some skill in plate racing, and Saturday night didn’t remove all ability from the equation, mastering the modulation of 800 horsepower with limited downforce is what separates the wheat from the chaff in NASCAR’s premier series.
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Jeff Gluck expresses a similar sentiment. He discusses the dilemma of racing as a sport versus an entertainment product in an insightful podcast, and concludes that he is in the game to be a sports reporter, not an entertainment reporter. That means the best drivers in a contest of driving skill with minimal aero downforce. And that means leaving the plates to Daytona and Talladega.

I don't follow racing "for entertainment purposes." If it's good hard racing, I am always entertained by that. If it's not good hard racing but is presented "for entertainment purposes," well, I'm just not interested. I can be happy with various ways to structure the competition... playoffs, points systems, stages... these are not inherently right or wrong IMO. But to take away braking zones and off-throttle time in favor of droning around WFO... that is just wrong if you regard racing as a sporting contest of skill.
 
Acs said:
No, if you watched the xfinity race at Indy last year it was pretty much a copy of the Indy 500 but with stock cars. Indycar doesn't use push to pass on ovals BTW, that's not how they achieve 40+ passes for the lead at indy and Pocono. IndyCars have a much higher downforce/horsepower ratio than stock cars (fun fact, they make less HP than a cup car) and also as a result put out a ton more drag. So when NASCAR wanted a good race at Indy, what did they do? Cut HP, upped downforce, added drag. Go figure, it worked.

Maybe tailoring the cars to each track is the right way to go. In which case, I still don't think this package is the solution to the high-banked 1.5 miler.
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You make a strong logical case for your perspective. The only part I disagree on is the "it worked". The consensus seems to be that it did for entertainment purposes. That's not actually why I'm watching, especially at the Cup (supposed to be top in the world for stock cars) level. Of course I like to be entertained, but what I'm entertained by in racing first and foremost is the skill of the driving. Generally speaking, the harder it is to maintain grip, and the closer to the 'edge' the vehicles are, the more thrilled I am. I'm not looking to the box score for how many lead changes there were to tell you if I enjoyed the race.

If you ask me at any given moment what kind of race I'd like to attend right this minute, it would probably be a non-wing sprint car or midget race. Of course stock cars aren't meant to have that kind of power-to-weight ratio, but that is the kind of power-to grip and downforce ratio I find ideal because of the difficulty involved. Generally, the further a type of racing is from that, especially on ovals, the less interested I am.

I have immense respect for the amount of elite skill it requires to win Cup races and finish in the top 5 with the current cars. They are damned hard to drive. As much as I have not been a fan of Kevin Harvick for most of his career, I consider him the best stock car driver driving the best cars at present, and he deserves his dominance on this basis. I will not be more entertained by a dumbed down version that allows more drivers and teams to win because nobody can drive away from the pack.

That said, that's just me, and I don't think there are enough of us left to sustain NASCAR racing at the audience levels that are expected.
 
LewTheShoe said:
NBC reporter Nate Ryan calls the All Star rules "socialized racing." I think he is right... taking from the fast guys, giving to the slow guys.


Jeff Gluck expresses a similar sentiment. He discusses the dilemma of racing as a sport versus an entertainment product in an insightful podcast, and concludes that he is in the game to be a sports reporter, not an entertainment reporter. That means the best drivers in a contest of driving skill with minimal aero downforce. And that means leaving the plates to Daytona and Talladega.

I don't follow racing "for entertainment purposes." If it's good hard racing, I am always entertained by that. If it's not good hard racing but is presented "for entertainment purposes," well, I'm just not interested. I can be happy with various ways to structure the competition... playoffs, points systems, stages... these are not inherently right or wrong IMO. But to take away braking zones and off-throttle time in favor of droning around WFO... that is just wrong if you regard racing as a sporting contest of skill.
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tenor.gif
 
I don't know why fans can't just take Indy and Pocono for what they are. Three races out of the whole season? If we get four races at Daytona and Talladega I don't know why we can't have a couple of fast, flat, technical tracks on the other end.

There aren't any F1 fans that turn on Monaco and wonder "How can we make this more like Baku?".
 
Also, I can't quite figure out why Tiger Woods is a godsend for golf, and LeBron James being in the Finals every year is great for the NBA, and the Patriots being in the Super Bowl most years works fine for the NFL, and Michael Phelps was great for swimming, Lance Armstrong was great for cycling (at the time), and on and on. But one driver or team dominates NASCAR too much and it's time to figure out how to get everyone else up to speed, because that's 'boring'.
 
StandOnIt said:
Racing fans want close races. I don't have a clue what they do with stick n ball
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I'm not sure that holds. I think there are scores of examples in racing as well of dominant racers whose presence made their series more popular. People love to love and love to hate those guys. It may have to do with the particular drivers who have dominated NASCAR recently not being the most box office friendly. I dunno. But I personally think NASCAR makes a mistake buying into the concept of selling 'the show' instead of selling greatness.
 
StandOnIt said:
If they would get rid of the goofy points system the press could play up drivers who are fighting for positions instead of having to wait until the playoffs. They also wouldn't have drivers who don't deserve to be there.
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Well that's for damn sure.
 
StandOnIt said:
If they would get rid of the goofy points system the press could play up drivers who are fighting for positions instead of having to wait until the playoffs. They also wouldn't have drivers who don't deserve to be there.
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I agree 100% I have said many times that they have ruined the drama of following the points from race to race. Top tens used to be important. Only one team can win every week, fans of the other thirty some drivers need a reason to get excited.
 
Switchback said:
I agree 100% I have said many times that they have ruined the drama of following the points from race to race. Top tens used to be important. Only one team can win every week, fans of the other thirty some drivers need a reason to get excited.
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I'm not one who criticizes the playoff concept, especially once the importance of the regular season was restored in 2017, but you make a very good point. Well done.
 
Mopardh9 said:
Nascar will use this next year, but why restrict an engine that produces 800hp when you could come to the track with an engine that puts out 450hp?:idunno:
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I liked the older motor that was 650 HP. Those cars would be awesome if they had today's safety measures.
 
FLRacingFan said:
NASCAR has never really been the one leading the charge of the lower downforce brigade. Drivers were the ones mostly desiring that. Back in 2014 when they tested at Michigan their "prime" package featured a tall spoiler and dive planes. Lower downforce was like their third option.
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Thank you Carl Edwards. Thinking that he has that low downforce package on his tractor as he harvests his soybeans.
LewTheShoe said:
NBC reporter Nate Ryan calls the All Star rules "socialized racing." I think he is right... taking from the fast guys, giving to the slow guys.
Jeff Gluck expresses a similar sentiment. He discusses the dilemma of racing as a sport versus an entertainment product in an insightful podcast, and concludes that he is in the game to be a sports reporter, not an entertainment reporter. That means the best drivers in a contest of driving skill with minimal aero downforce. And that means leaving the plates to Daytona and Talladega.
I don't follow racing "for entertainment purposes." If it's good hard racing, I am always entertained by that. If it's not good hard racing but is presented "for entertainment purposes," well, I'm just not interested. I can be happy with various ways to structure the competition... playoffs, points systems, stages... these are not inherently right or wrong IMO. But to take away braking zones and off-throttle time in favor of droning around WFO... that is just wrong if you regard racing as a sporting contest of skill.
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Again....a brilliant post. Perfect. Thank you. I am curious about @StandOnIt position on Nate's "socialized racing."
gnomesayin said:
Also, I can't quite figure out why Tiger Woods is a godsend for golf, and LeBron James being in the Finals every year is great for the NBA, and the Patriots being in the Super Bowl most years works fine for the NFL, and Michael Phelps was great for swimming, Lance Armstrong was great for cycling (at the time), and on and on. But one driver or team dominates NASCAR too much and it's time to figure out how to get everyone else up to speed, because that's 'boring'.
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Damn. This right here. Well said.
 
Revman said:
Again....a brilliant post. Perfect. Thank you. I am curious about @StandOnIt position on Nate's "socialized racing."

Damn. This right here. Well said.
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You probably need to interview Kevin Harvick about socialized racing, all of them were chasing him. Maybe the 4 team should be made to give the others their speed secrets, that would be socialized racing. As far as Nate Ryan? I didn't read anywhere about socialized racing that he said, could have said it. Without a address to the article where he said that I look at those posts as he said she said. What he did say I have no problem with it. He doesn't know what the hell Nascar is going to do with it, and unless we are part of the decision process neither does anyone around here know anything. They are using a similar package June 2 at Pocono, later at Indy, and Michigan in the Xfinity series.

"Was Saturday something to build on? Of course.
Something to implement immediately at every 1.5-mile oval? Of course not.
The All-Star Race provided the kernel of a concept that could work at other superspeedways in the future, provided there is some tweaking (specifically, at the front of the pack) and probably some major buy-in from teams.
But it isn’t some magic elixir that can be applied like a fresh coat of traction compound to any track seeking a jolt."

https://nascar.nbcsports.com/2018/0...-your-horsepower-on-using-those-plates-again/
 
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i really believe iroc like rules need to return. No matter what anyone says a Ford does not drive a Chevy. If every drove a Chevy during JJ's domination he may have been challenged.
 
I don't think the best car necessarily won, just like any plate race. Truex and KyBusch were better. Kevin couldn't get back to the front without help and numerous cautions and good cars taken out. I'd prefer driver skill to be how any changes are made. Adding the roval is a good idea so tracks aren't the same year-to-year and slight differences accentuate driver skill.
 
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