All-Star race experimentation receives mostly high marks

Momentum building from some drivers to run All-Star package again
All-Star winner Kevin Harvick and Denny Hamlin both spoke highly this week of the racing at Charlotte Motor Speedway.
“The show was better,’’ Harvick said on his SiriusXM NASCAR Radio show on Tuesday night. “Bottom line, the show was better to watch. Like I say, I don’t know that everyone can wrap around their arms around restrictor-plate racing every single mile-and-a-half race. I think the cars need to be faster. I think we need to figure out which race tracks that we want to race them on because the All-Star Race was a good test, but it wasn’t a 100 percent test of this is where we need to be and everybody just wants to jump right there.’

Hamlin is open to running the package again this season.
“As a driver, I had fun, I really did,’’ he said Wednesday after unveiling a FedEx Cares paint scheme for his car at Daytona in July.
“Didn’t have the fastest car, but at least there were moments where you had to be very strategic in what you had to do. It was a mix between a normal open race and a superspeedway. … I’d like to see it at a few other tracks. if it came this year, It would definitely be OK by me.’

The Xfinity Series is scheduled to run a similar package at Pocono (June 2) and Michigan (June 9).
https://nascar.nbcsports.com/2018/0...m-some-drivers-to-run-all-star-package-again/
 
I was shocked they didn't plan to run this package in the cup series at Indy right from the get-go. If they want to run this "Indycar" package again this year I would start with the brickyard, Pocono, Michigan and Loudon and you wouldn't hear any complaints.

However, keep this off the 1.5's for now. It isn't ready. What I saw Saturday was a leader still checked out, although not by as much as normal. Even with huge pushes it was too easy to stall out the run. A single car should be able to draft and make a move on the leader without help, like we saw in the xfinity indy race last year. Plus the complaints from the purists about "socialized" racing and whatever. NASCAR needs to be careful to take the time to take the best parts from this package and build something better for the mile and a halfs that make up the bulk of the schedule.
 
Acs said:
I was shocked they didn't plan to run this package in the cup series at Indy right from the get-go. If they want to run this "Indycar" package again this year I would start with the brickyard, Pocono, Michigan and Loudon and you wouldn't hear any complaints.

However, keep this off the 1.5's for now. It isn't ready. What I saw Saturday was a leader still checked out, although not by as much as normal. Even with huge pushes it was too easy to stall out the run. A single car should be able to draft and make a move on the leader without help, like we saw in the xfinity indy race last year. Plus the complaints from the purists about "socialized" racing and whatever. NASCAR needs to be careful to take the time to take the best parts from this package and build something better for the mile and a halfs that make up the bulk of the schedule.
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You have to remember that last segment was only 10 laps so a longer run will produce more comers and goers. I think a little more power by taking the plate up to a 1/16th would be great. I def think they will run this at Indy this year.
 
I think everybody noticed that they couldn't side draft and would get stalled out when they tried to pass unless they had help or a huge run. My guess is the front vents had a lot to do with that. Smaller front vents? IDK. Longer straights would make a difference. They need to try that setup on a track with the long straights. Going to be real interesting to see what happens next week at Pocono with the Xfinity cars. The only problem the Gibbs bunch said was getting motors ready in time, and this was in reference to Michigan June 10th.

If NASCAR chose to run the package in Cup at Michigan on June 10, what kind of challenge would it be for teams to make the switch?

“I think JGR and Toyota could actually do it and probably be at the forefront as anybody, but I think the engine package is probably a bigger concern,’’ said Mike Wheeler, crew chief for Hamlin, noting that engines are done further ahead of time. “I think as far as setups and tire data and areo data, we can get there pretty quickly. I’m not sure about other teams. Ultimately we didn’t have the parts to play with to do the testing beforehand. We would do that before we went there with points on the line.’’

https://nascar.nbcsports.com/2018/0...m-some-drivers-to-run-all-star-package-again/
 
The race was OK, and the race package was OK. The package was a step in the right direction. That being said, the finish was not what NASCAR needed nor wanted. Harvick running away with the season will kill ratings and track attendance. No, not because it is Harvick. It is because nobody is going spend hours in front of a TV or at a track in which 1 driver or maybe 2 or 3 others have the possibility of winning.

I told my wife that I would stop watching the races until NBC/Dale Jr. start to televise the races if Harvick won before the race started. I started a building a 2 slip dock cover over the last 5 days. Looking forward to getting it completed during my weekends over the next 4 weeks.

I’ll return to see how Jr. does in the booth.
 
Towmater said:
The race was OK, and the race package was OK. The package was a step in the right direction. That being said, the finish was not what NASCAR needed nor wanted. Harvick running away with the season will kill ratings and track attendance. No, not because it is Harvick. It is because nobody is going spend hours in front of a TV or at a track in which 1 driver or maybe 2 or 3 others have the possibility of winning.

I told my wife that I would stop watching the races until NBC/Dale Jr. start to televise the races if Harvick won before the race started. I started a building a 2 slip dock cover over the last 5 days. Looking forward to getting it completed during my weekends over the next 4 weeks.

I’ll return to see how Jr. does in the booth.
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Are you of the opinion that nascar should slow the 4 down? If so, do you see this as different from other dominant cars of the past?
 
Towmater said:
... I told my wife that I would stop watching the races until NBC/Dale Jr. start to televise the races if Harvick won before the race started. I started a building a 2 slip dock cover over the last 5 days. Looking forward to getting it completed during my weekends over the next 4 weeks.

I’ll return to see how Jr. does in the booth.
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I'm not clear on why you think which network / booth crew is covering the race is going to make a difference in the racing or who's winning.
 
I will say I am excited for the Xfinity race here in a few weeks at MIS, that could definitely be a hell of a show live. For me personally we just need to bring back the slingshot effect in some manner back to stock car racing. F1 and Indy can live without it mostly because the acceleration and handling with the cars is incredible, but NASCAR has always had that bumping and banging attitude that made it so special. Yet if "dirty air" is so impactful then you cannot bump because aero is everything, and you've made the sport just like open wheel
 
Kyle Busch won three races in a row a few weeks back. If they left the cars alone, Harvick's domination would not continue at this level for the entire season. There is zero actual evidence that this supposed problem is what is driving TV ratings declines, which have been down every race from Daytona onward.

The hand wringing over a great race car driver being particularly great for a while is pathetic.
 
Mispeedway15 said:
I will say I am excited for the Xfinity race here in a few weeks at MIS, that could definitely be a hell of a show live. For me personally we just need to bring back the slingshot effect in some manner back to stock car racing. F1 and Indy can live without it mostly because the acceleration and handling with the cars is incredible, but NASCAR has always had that bumping and banging attitude that made it so special. Yet if "dirty air" is so impactful then you cannot bump because aero is everything, and you've made the sport just like open wheel
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More of a symptom of short tracks going away, I think. Aero will still be important going 160-170 MPH, at least enough that they're not going to knock the crap out of each other.

I really don't mind if they want to do this in Xfinity, but Cup is the highest level and should be the quickest, toughest cars to drive. They were literally ~ 10-15 MPH slower than Trucks when running alone. I don't know how that can be reconciled without making Trucks run 140 and Xfinity 150.
 
FLRacingFan said:
More of a symptom of short tracks going away, I think. Aero will still be important going 160-170 MPH, at least enough that they're not going to knock the crap out of each other.

I really don't mind if they want to do this in Xfinity, but Cup is the highest level and should be the quickest, toughest cars to drive. They were literally ~ 10-15 MPH slower than Trucks when running alone. I don't know how that can be reconciled without making Trucks run 140 and Xfinity 150.
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ya don't? really. How about a larger opening on the plate?
 
StandOnIt said:
ya don't? really. How about a larger opening on the plate?
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You may as well just run no plate then...and according to many who support the racing on Saturday, the plate is a necessity. It's easy to underestimate how quick the Trucks are now. They're about on par with what the mid-to-late 90's Cup cars were doing around Charlotte.
 
It can be reconciled by tossing the whole idiotic idea. But oh well. Part of me does like seeing the plate racing supporters drawn out into the open, with many of them (not all by any means, but many) admitting that they would prefer low HP / high downforce pack racing just about everywhere. No longer are the excuses that it's only a safety necessity at two tracks and is just a unique few weeks of the season viable.
 
gnomesayin said:
It can be reconciled by tossing the whole idiotic idea. But oh well. Part of me does like seeing the plate racing supporters drawn out into the open, with many of them (not all by any means, but many) admitting that they would prefer low HP / high downforce pack racing just about everywhere. No longer are the excuses that it's only a safety necessity at two tracks and is just a unique few weeks of the season viable.
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I didn't see pack racing..sorry.
 
FLRacingFan said:
You may as well just run no plate then...and according to many who support the racing on Saturday, the plate is a necessity. It's easy to underestimate how quick the Trucks are now. They're about on par with what the mid-to-late 90's Cup cars were doing around Charlotte.
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Any coincidence that the era of cup cars you listed was the most popular time for the league
 
FLRacingFan said:
You may as well just run no plate then...and according to many who support the racing on Saturday, the plate is a necessity. It's easy to underestimate how quick the Trucks are now. They're about on par with what the mid-to-late 90's Cup cars were doing around Charlotte.
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I've tried a couple of times but I can't get anyone to respond seriously to the idea that trucks should be the platform for Cup drivers. I get jokes, snickers, but no serious reasons why it shouldn't at least be considered.
 
StandOnIt said:
You probably need to interview Kevin Harvick about socialized racing, all of them were chasing him. Maybe the 4 team should be made to give the others their speed secrets, that would be socialized racing. As far as Nate Ryan? I didn't read anywhere about socialized racing that he said, could have said it. Without a address to the article where he said that I look at those posts as he said she said. What he did say I have no problem with it. He doesn't know what the hell Nascar is going to do with it, and unless we are part of the decision process neither does anyone around here know anything. They are using a similar package June 2 at Pocono, later at Indy, and Michigan in the Xfinity series.

"Was Saturday something to build on? Of course.
Something to implement immediately at every 1.5-mile oval? Of course not.
The All-Star Race provided the kernel of a concept that could work at other superspeedways in the future, provided there is some tweaking (specifically, at the front of the pack) and probably some major buy-in from teams.
But it isn’t some magic elixir that can be applied like a fresh coat of traction compound to any track seeking a jolt."

https://nascar.nbcsports.com/2018/0...-your-horsepower-on-using-those-plates-again/
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Well said. Thanks.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
I've tried a couple of times but I can't get anyone to respond seriously to the idea that trucks should be the platform for Cup drivers. I get jokes, snickers, but no serious reasons why it shouldn't at least be considered.
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I don't favor that idea for all the same reasons I don't favor expanding usage of the All Star package to other races. Both the trucks and the All Star cars are roughly the same... high drag, high downforce, low power, dumbed down aero racing that has no place at the highest level. The highest level should emphasize driver skill and team excellence.

I strongly favor parity of manufacturer potential, but am opposed to artificial parity of drivers and teams. Manufacturer parity means all three brands have comparable potential in power, drag, and downforce... and it's the job of the teams and the drivers to convert the potential into actual performance and thus race wins. At this moment, Harvick and the 4 team are doing that better than anyone, although Busch and the 18 are close, and Larson with the 42 is in the game. I like the Penske boys, but they have not threatened Harvick this year, and that is on Team Penske to fix, not Nascar.
 
StandOnIt said:
Personally I like to see stock cars rubbing fenders, pushing and shoving each other around and clawing their way to the finish.
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Me too, but I would like to see them all get there in their own unique way.
 
LewTheShoe said:
I don't favor that idea for all the same reasons I don't favor expanding usage of the All Star package to other races. Both the trucks and the All Star cars are roughly the same... high drag, high downforce, low power, dumbed down aero racing that has no place at the highest level. The highest level should emphasize driver skill and team excellence.

I strongly favor parity of manufacturer potential, but am opposed to artificial parity of drivers and teams. Manufacturer parity means all three brands have comparable potential in power, drag, and downforce... and it's the job of the teams and the drivers to convert the potential into actual performance and thus race wins. At this moment, Harvick and the 4 team are doing that better than anyone, although Busch and the 18 are close, and Larson with the 42 is in the game. I like the Penske boys, but they have not threatened Harvick this year, and that is on Team Penske to fix, not Nascar.
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This is what you get from people whose childhood pre-dates T-Ball.
 
@Charlie Spencer - My comment did not imply that it would make a difference on who was or wasn’t winning. My comment, which you stretched into something it wasn’t, was expressed to show that I have an interest in viewing Dale Jr. in the booth and how he does in his new career.

The attempt to draw it into something else is beneath what I have read of you as a poster.

Switchback said:
Are you of the opinion that nascar should slow the 4 down? If so, do you see this as different from other dominant cars of the past?
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BTW, even NASCAR knows that it stinks up the show to have a dominate driver. How do we know that? Mr. Gordan’s interview with Joe Buck and what he stated when Joe Buck asked him about NASCAR being too worried that he was too dominant to make it interesting. It went like this:

“Yeah because unlike Earnhardt (Dale Sr.) where he sort of saw the bigger picture,” Gordon said. “He spent a lot more time with Bill France Jr. (former NASCAR CEO) who was running NASCAR and owned NASCAR at the time and Bill would explain to him you know, ‘Hey listen this is racing but it’s a sport, an entertainment sport, so if what happens on the track is not entertaining people aren’t gonna want to watch it.’ ”

“Me, I didn’t get that I was just ‘I’m gonna pass the car, I want to win the race, I don’t care how exciting it is, none of that at that time mattered to me,’ ” added Gordon.

The powers that be notified Gordon and his team that they were performing a little too well and it wasn’t good for the sport. It got to the point where Gordon and his team had a signal in the cars that would notify Gordon when he got too far ahead of the pack.

“We had a signal in the car, if I had a big lead they would say okay one second lead, alright two second lead, three second lead, alright Jeff you’re at four seconds,” Gordon said. “It would never get more than four seconds.”

Buck asked Gordon if he backed it down, to which Gordon replied, “Yep, yeah absolutely.”

Lets not try and make racing something that it isn't. It is an entertainment sport.
 
Towmater said:
My comment did not imply that it would make a difference on who was or wasn’t winning. My comment, which you stretched into something it wasn’t, was expressed to show that I have an interest in viewing Dale Jr. in the booth and how he does in his new career.
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Thanks for the clarification!
 
Mispeedway15 said:
Any coincidence that the era of cup cars you listed was the most popular time for the league
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NASCAR was certainly growing rapidly in the mid- to late- 90s, but peak popularity by most measures was from 2001 to around 2005.

Charlie Spencer said:
I've tried a couple of times but I can't get anyone to respond seriously to the idea that trucks should be the platform for Cup drivers. I get jokes, snickers, but no serious reasons why it shouldn't at least be considered.
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I'll give it a shot. I believe your rationale is based on a single factor: pickup trucks, namely the F-150 and Silverado, are the two top selling vehicles in the U.S. currently. While that is true, it is a pretty narrow way to interpret what a 'stock car' racing series should base its vehicles on. Firstly, the vast majority of stock car racing didn't evolve from trucks. There are niche racing series that actually race some version of honest-to-God truck-based vehicles, but the NASCAR Camping World Truck Series is not one of them. They are car-based just like all of the major series above and beneath them on the ladder. If one were to accept the proposition that NASCAR's flagship series should switch to trucks, I believe they'd have to emulate real truck characteristics more convincingly than just a vaguely truck-shaped body on top of a car frame for that gambit to be worth it. Vehicles based on some sort of real truck platform wouldn't race at all like what we're used to seeing, so...what's the point? I know that the ties between modern NASCAR cars and the real car models they pretend to be is quite loose, but at least they are moving back in the direction of using rear-wheel drive two-door performance car models, which is what the entire sport evolved using.

Also, compact and mid-size SUVS as an entire category are actually much larger, something like 40% of all vehicles sold in 2017, as opposed to 15% for trucks. That wasn't true in the early 1990s when the Truck Series evolved. If looking purely at sales data, that would be the place to go.

I like and very much support the existence of the Truck Series as a differentiated lower series. However, I don't want cars with those aero characteristics or something genuinely truck-ier to be what the top drivers are racing.
 
gnomesayin said:
Firstly, the vast majority of stock car racing didn't evolve from trucks.
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It didn't evolve from 4-door sedans either but they ran a lot of those in the '00s. The point is that it did evolve, however slowly. Maybe trucks are the next evolution.
gnomesayin said:
If one were to accept the proposition that NASCAR's flagship series should switch to trucks, I believe they'd have to emulate real truck characteristics more convincingly than just a vaguely truck-shaped body on top of a car frame for that gambit to be worth it.
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The Cup series already features vehicles that are just vaguely stock-car-shaped bodies. I don't see why a truck body would have to be more accurate.
gnomesayin said:
... but at least they are moving back in the direction of using rear-wheel drive two-door performance car models, which is what the entire sport evolved using.
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Are there 2-door / RWD Camrys? Ford switched to the Mustang at the Cup level because shortly that's the only car they're going to be making.
gnomesayin said:
I believe your rationale is based on a single factor: pickup trucks, namely the F-150 and Silverado, are the two top selling vehicles in the U.S. currently.
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That's part of my rationale, yes. Another part is the number of posts I see here that say the Truck races are often the best ones of the weekend. Now that may be due to a variety of reasons besides the vehicle platform - driver inexperience, shorter races resulting a sense of urgency, etc.

Thanks for the responses. I realize that it's really up to what the manufacturers want. If they want trucks running at the top level, we'll have them within two seasons.
 
Everything NASCAR wants accomplished could be done by 1) tweaking the tracks it races at and 2) better engineering of the tire. 1) is untouchable and NASCAR spites its own face, and 2) Goodyear is a joke
 
Richard Childress, Roger Penske want NASCAR to run All-Star package again
Because of the charter agreement between NASCAR and teams, any significant mid-season rule change (other than for safety) would have to be approved by car owners. Childress said he would vote to approve it.

“Anything that is good for our sport right now, which I think it would be, I’m for it,’’ Childress told NBC Sports on Thursday at Charlotte Motor Speedway. “I’m putting RCR aside and looking at the sport itself. If everybody in this garage will do that … put the sport first and we all go out and put the best show for the fans in the stands, that’s what we’ve got to do.

Penske, speaking to the media Thursday at Indianapolis Motor Speedway said he enjoyed last weekend’s All-Star Race.
“I thought it was terrific,’’ Penske said “Nobody could get away.
“Directionally, I think it’s the right thing to do. What I like about it is we’re trying something.’’

Where should this package run?
“I’d like to see us maybe run (Indianapolis) and somebody talked about running it at Michigan,” Penske said.
Childress, told of Penske’s recommendation on where to run the package, said: “That would be a good starting place, either one of them.’’

Richie Gilmore, president of ECR Engines, told NBC Sports that engine suppliers plan to meet with NASCAR officials next week to discuss options to run the package this season.
Gilmore says the engine builders are in support of running the package again this year.
“We all do believe this is something healthy for the sport,’’ Gilmore said.

Gilmore said the engine builders have talked about running this package at Michigan in August and then four weeks later at Indianapolis in September. That would allow teams to use the same engines in both events.

https://nascar.nbcsports.com/2018/0...ke-want-nascar-to-run-all-star-package-again/
 
I'm glad Childress would be "putting RCR aside" with such a vote. In no way would the package in question give the grandkids a better chance to succeed.

There are lots of somethings that could be tried. Maybe a new one every week. I wasn't aware these guys were that restless.
 
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Doesn't sound like the Toyota factory bunch liked the aero package. Not surprising

On the aero package run with restrictor plates run at the All-Star Race and what adjustments need to be made, Wilson said:

“I don’t think we want the drivers to be flat-footed all the time. We have the best drivers in the world and we’re putting them in a situation where some of them equated it to a video game. Most of them had fun. It was fun, but it was also the All-Star race and it wasn’t a points race. Again, these are the best drivers in the world. These cars should be hard to drive.”
https://nascar.nbcsports.com/2018/0...-with-fords-dominating-first-third-of-season/
 
StandOnIt said:
Doesn't sound like the Toyota factory bunch liked the aero package. Not surprising

On the aero package run with restrictor plates run at the All-Star Race and what adjustments need to be made, Wilson said:

“I don’t think we want the drivers to be flat-footed all the time. We have the best drivers in the world and we’re putting them in a situation where some of them equated it to a video game. Most of them had fun. It was fun, but it was also the All-Star race and it wasn’t a points race. Again, these are the best drivers in the world. These cars should be hard to drive.”
https://nascar.nbcsports.com/2018/0...-with-fords-dominating-first-third-of-season/
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Yeah, I agree with David Wilson's opinion on showcasing driver skills in points races. BTW, he also made very interesting comments in that same article about Toyota's 2018 performance. I believe @StandOnIt has been quick to attribute Toyota's less dominant performance this year to changes in the splitter and the OSS inspection process. Wilson confirmed this...
David Wilson said:
Toyota won 14 of the final 19 races last year and scored the championship with Martin Truex Jr. So, why isn’t Toyota as dominant this year?

“We make no bones about it, Fords, the Ford camp … the No. 4 camp in particular is out front right now and kudos to those guys,’’ Wilson said, noting Harvick’s success. “I think what happened in the offseason with the flat splitter and the (Optical Scanning Station) clearly brought the field closer together, but our MO isn’t one to whine about it or complain about it.’’

Wilson admits Toyota had found advantages with the splitter and now that is gone with the rule change for this season.

“We were doing some really clever things with the front of our cars and year over year, we just lost some front downforce,’’ he said. “That’s why you hear a lot of our guys complaining about having tight race cars.’’
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Ah, well, the wheels are pretty well set in motion at this point. Marcus Smith declared it "the greatest race" he's ever seen at Charlotte. I would be shocked if NASCAR didn't listen to all of the industry stakeholders gushing rainbows this past week and don't implement this somewhat full-time next season.



gnomesayin said:
I'm glad Childress would be "putting RCR aside" with such a vote. In no way would the package in question give the grandkids a better chance to succeed.

There are lots of somethings that could be tried. Maybe a new one every week. I wasn't aware these guys were that restless.
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How merciful of Richard to spare us the onslaught of his grandsons' driving talents. Often times, they're just too far ahead to even be worth showing on TV.
 
FLRacingFan said:
Ah, well, the wheels are pretty well set in motion at this point. Marcus Smith declared it "the greatest race" he's ever seen at Charlotte. I would be shocked if NASCAR didn't listen to all of the industry stakeholders gushing rainbows this past week and don't implement this somewhat full-time next season.





How merciful of Richard to spare us the onslaught of his grandsons' driving talents. Often times, they're just too far ahead to even be worth showing on TV.
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**** everything about my life
 
FLRacingFan said:
Ah, well, the wheels are pretty well set in motion at this point. Marcus Smith declared it "the greatest race" he's ever seen at Charlotte. I would be shocked if NASCAR didn't listen to all of the industry stakeholders gushing rainbows this past week and don't implement this somewhat full-time next season.
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Sometimes I wish I actually was a NASCAR hater who wanted it to fail. It would make it easier to watch these clowns stumble all over themselves flailing at the next enhancement embarrassment, and would erase all the frustration.
 
Hey take heart, the next couple weeks you guys will have even more opportunities to show your displeasure. Xfinity with PLATES two weeks in a row. :D:p
 
StandOnIt said:
Hey take heart, the next couple weeks you guys will have even more opportunities to show your displeasure. Xfinity with PLATES two weeks in a row. :D:p
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I'm not really hung up about the artistry of racing in the Xfinity series. I did notice, however, a lot of dynamite side by side racing last night without restrictor plates at the circuit's worst single groove track. PJ1 is your friend, Marcus Smith.
 
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