Big changes coming

Skoalbandit33 said:
There will be a boatload of unintended consequences to all these changes and I am licking my chops to see them come to fruition.
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I am sorry you feel that way, as it's a hateful, mean-spirited sentiment. Shame.
 
BobbyFord said:
It's easy to see why Brian France could invoke feelings of hatred. He's done nothing but destroy the sport.
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To be "licking your chops" at the prospect of harmful unintended consequences??? Shame.

Fair enough to blame Nascar management for their actions with which you disagree. But to wish for Nascar to fail? Not defensible.
 
LewTheShoe said:
To be "licking your chops" at the prospect of harmful unintended consequences??? Shame.

Fair enough to blame Nascar management for their actions with which you disagree. But to wish for Nascar to fail? Not defensible.
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Enough bad decisions and you deserve what's coming to you. If this crap is real, NASCAR has completely divorced itself from what made it great. I hope it does fail so a real stock car racing series can take its place.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
There will be a boatload of unintended consequences to all these changes and I am licking my chops to see them come to fruition.
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Literally the only thing I can think of when year after year he continues to make these off the wall changes, is that he has to be on drugs. As far as I can tell the decisions went something like this.

- Brian France is sitting in his office with a scarface mountain of blow on his desk. Rubs his face in it, and then sits up. "I have got it now" Brian shouts. "We will run races in segments and maybe next year we can run half the cars in the opposite direction". "But sir, no one wants anymore changes" an adviser tells him. Brian looks up at the wall and stares at a picture of his father Bill Jr. and his grandfather Bill Sr. and tears begin to form in his eyes. "You heard me". Brian painfully mumbles ......
 
What is wrong with lining 'em up and racing?? It worked for 50 yrs. When people questioned Bill Jr. He would essentially say we do what we do and there wasn't change for sake of change. I have an idea two yrs ago Bill Jr woulda told KB " Son, rule 1 says you have to attempt all races, you didn't so no title." But Brian has lost his mind.
 
wilson89 said:
Literally the only thing I can think of when year after year he continues to make these off the wall changes, is that he has to be on drugs. As far as I can tell the decisions went something like this.

- Brian France is sitting in his office with a scarface mountain of blow on his desk. Rubs his face in it, and then sits up. "I have got it now" Brian shouts. "We will run races in segments and maybe next year we can run half the cars in the opposite direction". "But sir, no one wants anymore changes" an adviser tells him. Brian looks up at the wall and stares at a picture of his father Bill Jr. and his grandfather Bill Sr. and tears begin to form in his eyes. "You heard me". Brian painfully mumbles ......
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In all seriousness, I have seen him when I thought him drunk on tv.
 
FLRacingFan said:
One of the guys on /r/NASCAR who usually seems to be in the know said within the past hour segments will be broken up by cautions, with a timed break in between segments.

He also said some of the bigger events will remain unchanged but award double points. Maybe there was something to that graphic after all.

Anyways, if we're doing these segments with breaks in between I'd expect the TV networks to cram most of the commercials in there so we don't miss nearly as much racing as we do now.
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Yes, maybe this is what the "24 twins races" in the graphic was about.
 
gnomesayin said:
Imagine if there were idiots running one of the major team sports who decided that teams don't have proper incentive to compete early in games, so they start awarding wins and losses in fractions.

These people are beyond help.
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No but that's the thing, in other sports you are scored continuously through the whole game. You score points in a football game from start to end and the teams have to go back and forth to keep up with each other.

In NASCAR, only one single lap really pays the points. So the rest is a waiting game and a waste. There's incentive to get to the end zone in football even during the very first drive, but there is hardly an incentive (one point) to lead in the beginning of race.
 
cheesepuffs said:
No but that's the thing, in other sports you are scored continuously through the whole game. You score points in a football game from start to end and the teams have to go back and forth to keep up with each other.

In NASCAR, only one single lap really pays the points. So the rest is a waiting game and a waste. There's incentive to get to the end zone in football even during the very first drive, but there is hardly an incentive (one point) to lead in the beginning of race.
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In a proper race, the incentive to lead on lap 1, 5, 50, and so on, is that it makes you more likely to be leading on the final lap of the race when the result is decided. In football, basketball, baseball, and literally every other sport, the incentive to be leading in the middle of the game is because it makes you more likely to win the game. That's it, that's all the incentive that is needed. Nobody goes to the playoffs because they won the most quarters or periods. The 100 meter dash isn't decided by who was leading every 10 meters.

Again, other forms of real racing don't have this problem, because they haven't created the problem by stinking up their show with bad gimmicks that mean that leading in the middle of the race doesn't much matter to who wins.
 
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gnomesayin said:
In a proper race, the incentive to lead on lap 1, 5, 50, and so on, is that it makes you more likely to be leading on the final lap of the race when the result is decided. In football, basketball, baseball, and literally every other sport, the incentive to be leading in the middle of the game is because it makes you more likely to win the game. That's it, that's all the incentive that is needed. Nobody goes to the playoffs because they won the most quarters or periods. The 100 meter dash isn't decided by who was leading every 10 meters.

Again, other forms of real racing don't have this problem, because they haven't created the problem by stinking up their show with bad gimmicks that mean that leading in the middle of the race doesn't much matter to who wins.
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All the guys that sit toward the back of the pack during super speedway races to avoid trouble and make their way to the front in the laps 20 laps disagree with you.

The 100 meter dash doesn't have cautions brother. That field never gets bunched up again. In a sport where the field constantly gets re-scrunched together there is zero incentive to be the leader versus being in sixth. That's the problem. That's why when a faster car comes up behind the leader the leader at any point in the race except at the very end will almost always just move up and let the faster car by. Because it's not worth fighting to maintain that lead when maintaining that lead at the halfway point makes no difference.
 
cheesepuffs said:
All the guys that sit toward the back of the pack during super speedway races to avoid trouble and make their way to the front in the laps 20 laps disagree with you.
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Yes, that's but one reason that plate racing sucks.

cheesepuffs said:
In a sport where the field constantly gets re-scrunched together
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They seek to purposely do that as much as possible to create the illusion that competition is closer than it actually is. That's why I say they are now stumbling around trying to fix problems they created. I'm cycling in my mind through the dozens of other forms of racing that I watch, and I can't come up with a single one in which it is observed that leading the race in the middle of the race isn't desirable enough. Wasn't true of NASCAR in decades past either. In actual racing, track position is the score.

Before they were just futzing around pretending to have closer racing than they do. Now they are actually redefining what a motor race is with "segments". Twin races are a thing in other motorsports, but they are self-contained. I guess we're doing stage racing now like the Tour de France, or we're doing rounds with cumulative scoring like boxing and combat sports. Whatever, I'm just glad the folks who run other racing sanctions aren't this delusional.
 
"I am very cool with Monday's announcement."

--Brad Keselowski
 
Only thing this is going to do is make NBC's Chase coverage that much more annoying with them going thru point scenarios every 3rd minute. Oh and...PRESSURE!
 
LewTheShoe said:
I am sorry you feel that way, as it's a hateful, mean-spirited sentiment. Shame.
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I disagree. If I said that I hoped Brian France would get bone cancer and die a slow, painful and miserable death that would be hateful and mean spirited. Laughing at the unintended consequences of a corporation's decisions is someone that enjoys irony.
 
LewTheShoe said:
To be "licking your chops" at the prospect of harmful unintended consequences??? Shame.

Fair enough to blame Nascar management for their actions with which you disagree. But to wish for Nascar to fail? Not defensible.
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You are up to your old tricks again of attributing things to me that I have not expressed let alone thought of. Unintended consequences in Nascar are not dangerous or harmful but normally comedic in a Homer Simpson "Doh" kind of way. You would need to have a sense of humor, irony and satire to understand what I am saying and therein lies your problem.

IDK how you arrived at the conclusion that I wanted Nascar to fail as that is just plain daft. All I have said is that I am looking forward to seeing the unintended consequences of some of the decisions Nascar has made. The last thing I would want is for Nascar to fail as some of the unintended consequences of its actions are most entertaining.
 
cheesepuffs said:
Yes, maybe this is what the "24 twins races" in the graphic was about.
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I've noticed nothing has been said or speculated about the NUMBER of segments. Everyone seems to be assuming it will be two.

I'll wait for the announcement. Publicly posting that position should give me the motivation stick to it.
 
29-4 said:
Enough bad decisions and you deserve what's coming to you. If this crap is real, NASCAR has completely divorced itself from what made it great. I hope it does fail so a real stock car racing series can take its place.
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I don't want Nascar to fail but if they are going to make dumbass decisions I reserve the right to SMH and laugh at the unintended consequences of their actions. If an organization makes sound decisions there are no unintended consequences.
 
LewTheShoe said:
"I am very cool with Monday's announcement."

--Brad Keselowski
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BKez thought that Monday's announcement fresh oats and clean watering troughs to drink from at the end of each segment.


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gnomesayin said:
Says the mind behind the 2016 All-Star Race format.

(I like Brad, but I don't trust his judgement.)
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That is the first thing I thought of as BKez is a premier wheel man but when it comes to knowing what will work and what the fans want he is lacking.
 
I stand by my statement on Skoal's gleeful anticipation of unintended consequences. It is a hateful, shameful sentiment.
 
Segments just sound stupid to me... my roommate freaking loved the caution clock and i hated it so I think he'll still be obsessed with Nascar.

Me? I keep drifting away... and I was a fan of the chase format lol.. but this has gotten ridiclous.

I'll wait to fully judge Monday but i'm nervous.
 
I will wait till Mondays announcement before losing it, however if they stop the cars between segments not only will it make the race longer time wise but I will treat it the same way I do a yellow or red. Get up and walk away from the tv for a few minutes. I really dont think that is what the tv commercial people want
 
gnomesayin said:
Yes, that's but one reason that plate racing sucks.



They seek to purposely do that as much as possible to create the illusion that competition is closer than it actually is. That's why I say they are now stumbling around trying to fix problems they created. I'm cycling in my mind through the dozens of other forms of racing that I watch, and I can't come up with a single one in which it is observed that leading the race in the middle of the race isn't desirable enough. Wasn't true of NASCAR in decades past either. In actual racing, track position is the score.

Before they were just futzing around pretending to have closer racing than they do. Now they are actually redefining what a motor race is with "segments". Twin races are a thing in other motorsports, but they are self-contained. I guess we're doing stage racing now like the Tour de France, or we're doing rounds with cumulative scoring like boxing and combat sports. Whatever, I'm just glad the folks who run other racing sanctions aren't this delusional.
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Do you honestly enjoy watching super long green flag runs though? I sure don't. I know other hardcore fans that don't. I went to the Loudon Cup race last July and there was like a 116 lap green flag runs and it was dreadful to sit through. Those long runs suck, the field just fans out, settles into position, and nothing happens. It's a parade.

You keep saying NASCAR is the only motorsport concerned about it, but that isn't the case. F1 for example this season, who normally has a standing start to begin this race and then does rolling restarts following every safety car period, will now introduce standing restarts instead. Because when the field gets strung out it just sucks and there is nothing to see. So this is not only a NASCAR problem. And other forms of motorsport aren't trying to fix this yet, but those other forms, like let's say IMSA; how many people follow sports car racing through the whole season and not just the Rolex 24 and LeMans? Not many.
 
I have no problem with Nascar fans being upset with the direction it is headed.I have so many friends that used to be Nascar fans,they just don't care one way or the other.There are things much worse than having fans upset with you.
 
gnomesayin said:
Imagine if there were idiots running one of the major team sports who decided that teams don't have proper incentive to compete early in games, so they start awarding wins and losses in fractions.

These people are beyond help.
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It's bad enough having a qualifying format where the fastest car doesn't always win the pole, it'd be even worse if we had a format where the guy who crosses the finish line 9th wins the race because he accumulated the most points during the race.
 
ToyYoda said:
It's bad enough having a qualifying format where the fastest car doesn't always win the pole, it'd be even worse if we had a format where the guy who crosses the finish line 9th wins the race because he accumulated the most points during the race.
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I may be wrong but I don't think that's how it's gonna work.
 
NASCAR lost its way with the COT. At that time it decided to center the sport on the drivers. Then, they wanted to attract the target demographic. The proposition for the younger set was to pick a driver, and come to the party. They kind of did until they realized that they had a 1 in 40 shot at leaving euphoric. This is where the modern world comes into play. Why would anybody want to participate in a sport where you are happy maybe 4 times a year? So, now we have to dick with everything to keep a driver in the hunt and maintain the attention of the faithful. It is artificial in this sense. The amazing thing is that all this time, it appears to me that another agenda is operating--maybe accidentally. Look at what Toyota is doing--stay with me here, don't hit that ignore button just yet LOL-- Introduce your new NASCAR race car at the same time you introduce your production version--get a modern connection (we cannot drive what they race anymore) to the consumer. Again, I have always believed that racing is an expression of a manufacturer. Second, develop young talent, and lock them in so that the drivers become the face of the manufacturer--not the show in and of themselves. Thank you to Ford for following Toyota's lead--probably out of necessity rather than choice. I expect Jack Roush for railing Toyota in starting this, and costing everybody money--probably right, but still a wise investment IMO. If NASCAR could following this formula, the cars/manufacturers would gain relevance again, the manufacturers would have a human face in the drivers, and fans would broaden the way they watch the races because they have more than one driver to invest in. I believe that if fans watched in this manner, or a manner that broadens their appreciation for what they see, this ambiguous "I know great racing when I see it" stuff would have more "I see it," than "I don't." This is what keeps me invested and positive about the sport. I absolutely do not think you can sell this thing to people on the foundation of just sit back and enjoy the show--you don't have to pull for anybody--just be a fan of "great racing." How many NASCAR hats are sold? How many driver hats are sold? Nobody buys into appreciating a sport like an art show where you go just for the experience. You have to pull for something, and this world will not support a 1:40 shot.
 
Unintended consequences? Christ, it's not that hard to think of them. I'm just a guy morbidly hungover on a Sunday and even I can think of a way this segment crap will mess up races.

Think about how this is going to affect Pocono, Indy, and the road courses. All the places you can pit without losing a lap. If they throw a caution at every quarter mark of the race, teams will know it's coming. At those tracks, the correct strategy call is to then pit the lap before then stay out under the caution. So we'll get these F'ed up scenarios where NA$CAR wants to reward the leaders when the caution flies and instead everyone ducks onto pit road right beforehand so they won't lose position during the caution. I can see it now, Rick Allen: "And our segment one winner, the only one who stayed out, is Josh Wise in the #69! Let's dial him up and talk to him. Josh, how's it going? you won!" "Yeah thanks guys, our Pornhub Chevy #69 was fast so far we were only 30 seconds behind the leaders but they pitted and now we're gonna pit and get sent right to the back again thanks NASCAR I hate this ****"
 
Revman said:
NASCAR lost its way with the COT. At that time it decided to center the sport on the drivers. Then, they wanted to attract the target demographic. The proposition for the younger set was to pick a driver, and come to the party. They kind of did until they realized that they had a 1 in 40 shot at leaving euphoric. This is where the modern world comes into play. Why would anybody want to participate in a sport where you are happy maybe 4 times a year? So, now we have to dick with everything to keep a driver in the hunt and maintain the attention of the faithful. It is artificial in this sense. The amazing thing is that all this time, it appears to me that another agenda is operating--maybe accidentally. Look at what Toyota is doing--stay with me here, don't hit that ignore button just yet LOL-- Introduce your new NASCAR race car at the same time you introduce your production version--get a modern connection (we cannot drive what they race anymore) to the consumer. Again, I have always believed that racing is an expression of a manufacturer. Second, develop young talent, and lock them in so that the drivers become the face of the manufacturer--not the show in and of themselves. Thank you to Ford for following Toyota's lead--probably out of necessity rather than choice. I expect Jack Roush for railing Toyota in starting this, and costing everybody money--probably right, but still a wise investment IMO. If NASCAR could following this formula, the cars/manufacturers would gain relevance again, the manufacturers would have a human face in the drivers, and fans would broaden the way they watch the races because they have more than one driver to invest in. I believe that if fans watched in this manner, or a manner that broadens their appreciation for what they see, this ambiguous "I know great racing when I see it" stuff would have more "I see it," than "I don't." This is what keeps me invested and positive about the sport. I absolutely do not think you can sell this thing to people on the foundation of just sit back and enjoy the show--you don't have to pull for anybody--just be a fan of "great racing." How many NASCAR hats are sold? How many driver hats are sold? Nobody buys into appreciating a sport like an art show where you go just for the experience. You have to pull for something, and this world will not support a 1:40 shot.
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Interesting point. There is validity to your argument. I "recruited" a fan to NASCAR a few years ago who follows racing now casually but he refuses to go to a race (even when I offer to get him a ticket and drive) because his favorite driver (Keselowski) has only a small chance of winning. He compares it NHL and the NFL and doesn't want to invest a day of his time (Dover is almost 3 hours away from us and Pocono 2) to "see someone else win", especially someone he dislikes.

I go to races rooting for my driver but I respect the winner, regardless of who wins and appreciate a hard fought battle at the track. Even the most "boring" race I attended was the total domination of Dover by Kevin Harvick a couple of years ago but I appreciated what Kevin and his team accomplished in setting up and driving such a dominant car that day. Every restart was as though he was shot out of a cannon. Impressive teamwork and engineering.
 
LewTheShoe said:
I stand by my statement on Skoal's gleeful anticipation of unintended consequences. It is a hateful, shameful sentiment.
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When Coke changed formula's without asking its customers if they wanted change I loved the unintended consequences of the decision as it is arrogant to tell your customers what they want. Fortunately Coke didn't pull a Nascar and make poor choice upon poor choice and fixed the problem.

Another example of my shameful hatred involves McDonalds. From what I understand Big Mac's are around 5 bucks which is stupid money but one of my friend's starving student son has a work around full of unintended consequences. He orders a Double Cheese burger with shredded lettuce and Mac sauce for $1.50 and he likes hot fries so he orders "no salt" fries which means a new batch of fries have to be made so they are piping hot and then he salts them. The unintended consequences are deliciously funny.
 
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