Big changes coming

cheesepuffs said:
Do you honestly enjoy watching super long green flag runs though? I sure don't. I know other hardcore fans that don't. I went to the Loudon Cup race last July and there was like a 116 lap green flag runs and it was dreadful to sit through. Those long runs suck, the field just fans out, settles into position, and nothing happens. It's a parade.

You keep saying NASCAR is the only motorsport concerned about it, but that isn't the case. F1 for example this season, who normally has a standing start to begin this race and then does rolling restarts following every safety car period, will now introduce standing restarts instead. Because when the field gets strung out it just sucks and there is nothing to see. So this is not only a NASCAR problem. And other forms of motorsport aren't trying to fix this yet, but those other forms, like let's say IMSA; how many people follow sports car racing through the whole season and not just the Rolex 24 and LeMans? Not many.
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I am in favor of letting a race play out naturally so if that means there are 4 legitimate cautions in 50 laps I am good with it just like I am fine if a race is run with no cautions.
 
At this point I think I would rather just see 3 races. An hour of racing, 15 mins of commercials, start the next race. Problem is, the TV stations will cram more advertising into the first hour rather than letting people actually watch the race.
 
Revman said:
NASCAR lost its way with the COT. At that time it decided to center the sport on the drivers. Then, they wanted to attract the target demographic. The proposition for the younger set was to pick a driver, and come to the party. They kind of did until they realized that they had a 1 in 40 shot at leaving euphoric. This is where the modern world comes into play. Why would anybody want to participate in a sport where you are happy maybe 4 times a year? So, now we have to dick with everything to keep a driver in the hunt and maintain the attention of the faithful. It is artificial in this sense. The amazing thing is that all this time, it appears to me that another agenda is operating--maybe accidentally. Look at what Toyota is doing--stay with me here, don't hit that ignore button just yet LOL-- Introduce your new NASCAR race car at the same time you introduce your production version--get a modern connection (we cannot drive what they race anymore) to the consumer. Again, I have always believed that racing is an expression of a manufacturer. Second, develop young talent, and lock them in so that the drivers become the face of the manufacturer--not the show in and of themselves. Thank you to Ford for following Toyota's lead--probably out of necessity rather than choice. I expect Jack Roush for railing Toyota in starting this, and costing everybody money--probably right, but still a wise investment IMO. If NASCAR could following this formula, the cars/manufacturers would gain relevance again, the manufacturers would have a human face in the drivers, and fans would broaden the way they watch the races because they have more than one driver to invest in. I believe that if fans watched in this manner, or a manner that broadens their appreciation for what they see, this ambiguous "I know great racing when I see it" stuff would have more "I see it," than "I don't." This is what keeps me invested and positive about the sport. I absolutely do not think you can sell this thing to people on the foundation of just sit back and enjoy the show--you don't have to pull for anybody--just be a fan of "great racing." How many NASCAR hats are sold? How many driver hats are sold? Nobody buys into appreciating a sport like an art show where you go just for the experience. You have to pull for something, and this world will not support a 1:40 shot.
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As far as I know several fans align themselves with a team and that gives them a choice of up to 4 drivers to root for. A Hendrick fan may have Jimmie Johnson as his fave but is still happy if one of the other drivers win. I used to know people that rooted for a half dozen drivers too so I think there is more than one way to have multiple options than being a strict manufacturer fan.
 
It's so sad, NASCAR may never ever regain its fanbase from these changes . Less then 3% of American high schools have sanctioned go-karting as a sport,
but 80% have football.
 
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Acs said:
Unintended consequences? Christ, it's not that hard to think of them. I'm just a guy morbidly hungover on a Sunday and even I can think of a way this segment crap will mess up races.

Think about how this is going to affect Pocono, Indy, and the road courses. All the places you can pit without losing a lap. If they throw a caution at every quarter mark of the race, teams will know it's coming. At those tracks, the correct strategy call is to then pit the lap before then stay out under the caution. So we'll get these F'ed up scenarios where NA$CAR wants to reward the leaders when the caution flies and instead everyone ducks onto pit road right beforehand so they won't lose position during the caution. I can see it now, Rick Allen: "And our segment one winner, the only one who stayed out, is Josh Wise in the #69! Let's dial him up and talk to him. Josh, how's it going? you won!" "Yeah thanks guys, our Pornhub Chevy #69 was fast so far we were only 30 seconds behind the leaders but they pitted and now we're gonna pit and get sent right to the back again thanks NASCAR I hate this sh!t"
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This is the exact sort of thing I was thinking of when I made my initial comment. Nascar doesn't think of things like that and ends up looking foolish because of it.
 
LouieLouie said:
I'm interested to see if they actually just red flag/stop the race so teams can reset or is this the caution clock?
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I think it'll be a red flag which leads to a short break in which Fox and NBC will load up most ads in that time, which will be excellent.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
I am in favor of letting a race play out naturally so if that means there are 4 legitimate cautions in 50 laps I am good with it just like I am fine if a race is run with no cautions.
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When a race goes green for an hour or more, do you honestly sit there with your eyes glued to the TV in suspense, or do you drift off into something else?
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
This is the exact sort of thing I was thinking of when I made my initial comment. Nascar doesn't think of things like that and ends up looking foolish because of it.
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Or NASCAR has mandatory stops during the segment breaks and easily eliminates that whole problem...
 
29-4 said:
If you have no attention span, racing might not be for you.
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Try to telling that to literally almost everybody and see how much of a business case you have anymore. That's basically a middle finger to society.

The problem is that the races are too damn long. I love the length of F1 and truck races, it's like two hours and done. Not three and a half where most of it is commercials or DW spouting off nonsense. A 500 mile race is far too short to be a spectacle of endurance like say LeMans or Sebring, yet it's long enough to be unnecessary. You do not need to go almost four hours sometimes to determine the winner of a Cup race. That result could easily be achieved in two hours, which is much more palatable for basically everybody. There are times on Sundays where I'll watch the start of the race, then go to the gym and come back in time to watch the end. The races are so long that the middle means nothing. The new points system sounds like it will fix that which is very welcome.

And it's not really about not having an attention span. It's about giving fans something to pay attention to in the first place.
 
cheesepuffs said:
When a race goes green for an hour or more, do you honestly sit there with your eyes glued to the TV in suspense, or do you drift off into something else?
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A lot of what I watch depends on what the networks are showing as if they are showing silly angles, glowing brake rotors or a driver's feet I just FF through it as that stuff provides no value to me. As often happens the leader has checked out in clean air but there still are battles on track and if they are shown I watch.
 
cheesepuffs said:
Try to telling that to literally almost everybody and see how much of a business case you have anymore. That's basically a middle finger to society.

The problem is that the races are too damn long. I love the length of F1 and truck races, it's like two hours and done. Not three and a half where most of it is commercials or DW spouting off nonsense. A 500 mile race is far too short to be a spectacle of endurance like say LeMans or Sebring, yet it's long enough to be unnecessary. You do not need to go almost four hours sometimes to determine the winner of a Cup race. That result could easily be achieved in two hours, which is much more palatable for basically everybody. There are times on Sundays where I'll watch the start of the race, then go to the gym and come back in time to watch the end. The races are so long that the middle means nothing. The new points system sounds like it will fix that which is very welcome.

And it's not really about not having an attention span. It's about giving fans something to pay attention to in the first place.
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NFL games last 3 hours. College games last 3.5. Both of these sports are doing fine. Length is not the problem.
 
cheesepuffs said:
Or NASCAR has mandatory stops during the segment breaks and easily eliminates that whole problem...
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Nascar is not smart enough to avoid unintended consequences or at least have not been to date. Maybe this will be the year they have thought things out but I am not holding my breath.
 
29-4 said:
NFL games last 3 hours. College games last 3.5. Both of these sports are doing fine.
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How many times do we have to go over the fact that NFL games are scored through every single quarter of the game and that a NASCAR race is only scored after the last lap? (I don't care about the one point lap bonuses, those mean zilch anymore).

There is a huge distinction to be made here. When you watch a football game, it's constant back and forth. The score is changing the whole time. The first drive of the game is as important as the last. Laps 15 through 175 of a 200 lap race? Really don't matter at all. It's dead space with ZERO scoring implications in the middle of the race. There is no need to fight tooth and nail for the lead on lap 50, but there IS a need to fight tooth and nail for the lead in the football game the entire duration of all four quarters.

So adding scoring in NASCAR to be awarded at the conclusion of each segment would mean that the three hour race would actually be worth watching all the through. All of it would matter, not just the very end.
 
cheesepuffs said:
Try to telling that to literally almost everybody and see how much of a business case you have anymore. That's basically a middle finger to society.
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Wait..huh?

What about people who go to the movies to watch a movie that goes 2-3 hours?

Worst of all, you cant use phones while in there.

I think that applies to NASCAR and other things you hold interest in. I no longer have the interest to watch whole NASCAR races but that's because I dont like it as much anymore. The only thing in common I have with NASCAR these days is that I love racing cars.
 
Reck said:
Wait..huh?

What about people who go to the movies to watch a movie that goes 2-3 hours?

Worst of all, you cant use phones while in there.

I think that applies to NASCAR and other things you hold interest in. I no longer have the interest to watch whole NASCAR races but that's because I dont like it as much anymore. The only thing in common I have with NASCAR these days is that I love racing cars.
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Again, distinctions to be made. A movie is developing from beginning to end. You have the intro, character development, conflict, rising action, climax, and falling action/conclusion. This keeps your brain thinking and engaged.

What is engaging about watching cars go in circles completely strung out over a 100 lap green flag run the middle of a race before position actually counts for anything? It's completely predictable and boring. It has no implications yet so there's no stress or tension to hinge on and keep you on the edge of your seat. It's just... nothing. Segment racing is going to be more like the intro, rising action, climax type of structure that keeps people watching a movie.
 
That sounds good to me. Especially for the fringe drivers that tend to be just a bit outside the top 10 like Jamie Mac, Austin Dillon, etc it will dramatically increase competition for them to try to be in the top 10 as 10th will mean bonus points and 11th will mean missing the boat. So far so good.

And less commercial intrusion into the action, that's wonderful and what we've all wanted for quite some time.
 
cheesepuffs said:
Again, distinctions to be made. A movie is developing from beginning to end. You have the intro, character development, conflict, rising action, climax, and falling action/conclusion. This keeps your brain thinking and engaged.

What is engaging about watching cars go in circles completely strung out over a 100 lap green flag run the middle of a race before position actually counts for anything? It's completely predictable and boring. It has no implications yet so there's no stress or tension to hinge on and keep you on the edge of your seat. It's just... nothing. Segment racing is going to be more like the intro, rising action, climax type of structure that keeps people watching a movie.
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I would agree with you that the first 175 laps of a 200 lap race have become increasingly irrelevant. But France is to blame for that as well. When my driver was about to be lapped back in the day, I was on the edge of my seat. I knew being lapped would have big implications for his finishing. Now, with wave arounds and lucky dogs, it hardly matters. Yet another of the ways BF has destroyed this sport through unintended consequences.
 
Not many NASCAR fans go to the gym DURING the races so yeah. DVR might be the way to go @cheesepuffs


I'd rather not watch the races get hacked into pieces for the benifit of the few people that would rather run errands during the races anyways.

I've always loved watching races develop. Sure, some are less captivating than others, but there are always comers and goers and particular developments in all the races. I don't know why people are so keen on ****** it up. Fans and France, alike.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
I used to know people that rooted for a half dozen drivers too so I think there is more than one way to have multiple options than being a strict manufacturer fan.
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Completely agree, and I believe that I said as much at the end of my post. NASCAR is unlike other sports (this probably could go in the other thread so entitled) in that it demands a different way to watch and appreciate. When things go right, and your driver wins in this context, it is EXTREMELY special, and honestly much more memorable than a regular season win in stick and ball sports. I have seen our 2015 Champion Kyle Damn Busch win twice in Cup in one of my TRD powered Toyota Camrys, and both victories will live as the most memorable sports experiences I have ever had. There is a certain poster (perhaps former poster) who shares my passion for our 2015 Champion who I used to love reminding that I have had seen him win twice. He knows that ever since, I live under a bench seat at Fontana awaiting his next conquest. Would love it if he would be kind enough to bring me food from time to time.
 
It's like the Chase is death and the lack of fans is a tumor and they're over here cutting 8" around the meat trying to save the sport...


NASCAR brass, you dumbasses, the racing 'format' isn't the problem. It's literally every thing else you do.
 
LewTheShoe said:
To be "licking your chops" at the prospect of harmful unintended consequences??? Shame.

Fair enough to blame Nascar management for their actions with which you disagree. But to wish for Nascar to fail? Not defensible.
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Complete failure is the ONLY CURE for these ridiculous ideas. Nascar will be forced to rid itself of the joke called BRIAN. With it goes those that encourage these stupid ideas. I HOPE.
 
Team Penske said:
Complete failure is the ONLY CURE for these ridiculous ideas. Nascar will be forced to rid itself of the joke called BRIAN. With it goes those that encourage these stupid ideas. I HOPE.
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Didn't NASCAR basically patent everything they do so there can never be another major stock car series racing on ISC/SMI tracks?
 
Hmm, wasn't the whole point of this new chase format to put winning above everything else? Seems that has backfired just a bit eh Humpy Wheeler?
 
Team Penske said:
Complete failure is the ONLY CURE for these ridiculous ideas. Nascar will be forced to rid itself of the joke called BRIAN. With it goes those that encourage these stupid ideas. I HOPE.
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People keep mentioning Brian but it's clear as day that this was Monsters and the tv networks idea.
 
Team Penske said:
Complete failure is the ONLY CURE for these ridiculous ideas. Nascar will be forced to rid itself of the joke called BRIAN. With it goes those that encourage these stupid ideas. I HOPE.
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While I think that Brian should step down (or be removed), I believe we're blaming the tail instead of the dog. Brian is beholden to the networks from whom he successfully negotiated billions of dollars from (he deserves lots of credit for that) and now those networks are demanding a better return on their investment due to sagging ratings. Brian is observant enough to realize that fans are no longer showing up at the track like they did (Dover attendance is roughly half from a decade ago) and the main moneymaker for him and NASCAR is TV. At this point he will do almost anything to satisfy the networks because if he doesn't, the gravy train will end in less than a decade and NASCAR will be a shell of what it is now. FOX/NBC don't care about the long-term viability of the sport. They want ratings because they now realize they overpaid (by a gross margin) for the TV rights. They will literally do anything to recoup some of the billions they spent and Brian is their puppet. Never forget who is really pulling the strings.
 
NasNYG567 said:
Monster and Fox/NBC have Brian by the balls, they came up with it.
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That's probably true, but it is kind of funny (not in a ha-ha way) that during Brian France's tenure he hasn't been able to go more than two or three years without making some kind of major, sweeping change to the sport whereas the sport was relatively static for the 25-30 years before he took over.
 
oldschoolnascardude1 said:
So, am I going to see Michael Waltrip sprinting up and down pit road during the segments, babbling to drivers and teams about "halftime adjustments"?
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Yes.. Can't wait to hear the unique insight DW offers in-between the hockey periods, either.
 
If you win a race you are in the chase and if you win a race in a round in the chase you advance so why worry about points?

I would think that there will be cases where there won't be a lot of cars in the final segment as this method of scoring should ensure more wrecks from reckless drivers.

I wonder how the masses will feel when some of the top cars are wadded up in the garage halfway through the first segment because some doofus ran out of talent?

It may be better to have the cars drag race instead of racing on an oval as those events last only seconds before they are over.

We could really see tempers flare this year as this system will reward stupidity in the way some of the drivers take care of biz.
 
ToyYoda said:
That's probably true, but it is kind of funny (not in a ha-ha way) that during Brian France's tenure he hasn't been able to go more than two or three years without making some kind of major, sweeping change to the sport whereas the sport was relatively static for the 25-30 years before he took over.
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Oh of course, I wish the rules wouldn't change all that much. But I view NASCAR as a business and I totally understand what they're trying to do with getting the younger audience in and I truly appreciate them reaching out to my demographic even if it's ill fated.
 
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