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Yeah, most guys would give anything to have as many wins as DNFs.

Maybe he was being sarcastic, idk
17 wins in 3 seasons matches Kyle Busch's best stretch, minus 1.

He's left a lot of wins on the table, for sure and he can do better.

But in 3 seasons he's gone from 6 wins and nothing, to 23 wins and a championship.

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I feel sorry for the old Gordon fans, Hendrick signs Johnson with Jeff's help and he beats the dog **** out of Gordon from then on. So they throw their allegiance to young Elliott and here comes Larson lol. I understand why so many of them have a sick twisted outlook about Nascar in general lol.
2007 broke their will.

And the crazy thing is, that as good as Gordon was in 2007, he was even better in the chase. 2 wins, 6 top 5s, 9 top 10s, average finish of 5.1 that would have been by FAR the best chase run to that point. And he still lost. There was a sort of hopelessness for him that came from that

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Trolls will go back 20 years into the make believe to make a point lol. Go back a couple more and Nascar was a shadow of what it was, add 5 years and it was over the hump and falling until they got rid of ol' Brian. I wonder why they don't compare to those times lol?
If the comparison is Chase/Playoffs VS Latford System, why in the hell would I only go back 5-10 years? That would be completely pointless. I get your point that NASCAR has rebounded somewhat from their rock bottom point, but its STILL a long way from where they were. And whether any of you want to admit it or not, the Chase format was one of the things specifically listed as a reason many people stopped paying attention to NASCAR. I have people tell me that all the time when they find out I'm still an avid NASCAR fan. I also find it interesting that not wearing rose colored glasses and pretending every damn thing is perfect is considered being a troll.
 
If the comparison is Chase/Playoffs VS Latford System, why in the hell would I only go back 5-10 years? That would be completely pointless. I get your point that NASCAR has rebounded somewhat from their rock bottom point, but its STILL a long way from where they were. And whether any of you want to admit it or not, the Chase format was one of the things specifically listed as a reason many people stopped paying attention to NASCAR. I have people tell me that all the time when they find out I'm still an avid NASCAR fan. I also find it interesting that not wearing rose colored glasses and pretending every damn thing is perfect is considered being a troll.
The point is there was only a very short period that you continue to refer to. Some magical time period that most fans can only remember bits and pieces of it was so long ago and a large number of the current fandom wasn't alive or very young.. Anyone with half a brain should know that facts and fantasy are two different things and the passage of time distorts both. Many factors involved in the ebbs and flows of business in the last 20 years and you continue to point out 4 or 5 years out of 75 as your aha moment. It's sad.
 
If the comparison is Chase/Playoffs VS Latford System, why in the hell would I only go back 5-10 years? That would be completely pointless. I get your point that NASCAR has rebounded somewhat from their rock bottom point, but its STILL a long way from where they were. And whether any of you want to admit it or not, the Chase format was one of the things specifically listed as a reason many people stopped paying attention to NASCAR. I have people tell me that all the time when they find out I'm still an avid NASCAR fan. I also find it interesting that not wearing rose colored glasses and pretending every damn thing is perfect is considered being a troll.
Here ya go, here is someone you can identify with. You two can figure out which points system from years ago to use and find the REAL TRUE champion.

 
Here ya go, here is someone you can identify with. You two can figure out which points system from years ago to use and find the REAL TRUE champion.


The champion is the champion, based on whatever system is used, whether it's a good one or a stupid as hell one. That doesn't mean we can't argue for a better system to be implemented, or opine for a day when common sense took precedent over creating made for TV moments.
 
The champion is the champion, based on whatever system is used, whether it's a good one or a stupid as hell one. That doesn't mean we can't argue for a better system to be implemented, or opine for a day when common sense took precedent over creating made for TV moments.
Looks like Debi is trying, maybe you can join forces? Get some twisted sister cars from back in the day, start your own series.
 
We have legitimately had multiple pages of people arguing full season points vs. playoffs just to hide the fact that Kyle Larson is the anti-Kevin Harvick when it comes to closing things down, Larson chokes too often for his level of talent and his fans don't seem to care about holding him accountable for it.

Would you Larson fanboys prefer it if people pointed out his average finish instead? This format is perfect for Larson because it masks the deficiencies in his driving style. He tears up too many race cars by making stupid mistakes.

I actually like the playoffs but any sports fan recognizes that the best team doesn't always win the championship. Both extremes of this argument are silly. You can agree that a playoff doesn't always reward the best driver without calling for the system to be abolished. You also don't have to argue that the playoff always rewards the best driver in order to confirm its validity. Performing in the playoffs is a skill that every single other sports fanbase recognizes.

The NASCAR Cup Series Champion is deserving because they performed when it mattered, even if they weren't the best team all season. Point blank.
 
We have legitimately had multiple pages of people arguing full season points vs. playoffs just to hide the fact that Kyle Larson is the anti-Kevin Harvick when it comes to closing things down, Larson chokes too often for his level of talent and his fans don't seem to care about holding him accountable for it.

Would you Larson fanboys prefer it if people pointed out his average finish instead? This format is perfect for Larson because it masks the deficiencies in his driving style. He tears up too many race cars by making stupid mistakes.

I actually like the playoffs but any sports fan recognizes that the best team doesn't always win the championship. Both extremes of this argument are silly. You can agree that a playoff doesn't always reward the best driver without calling for the system to be abolished. You also don't have to argue that the playoff always rewards the best driver in order to confirm its validity. Performing in the playoffs is a skill that every single other sports fanbase recognizes.

The NASCAR Cup Series Champion is deserving because they performed when it mattered, even if they weren't the best team all season. Point blank.
How do you know what Larson's driving style would be in a different format? I know of one that awards passing points..you would get dirty watching it though.

Larson has a one in 4 chance of winning the cup at this point.

His other passion, 410 900 HP dirt Sprint cars, he gets rewarded on the dirt track for the most points period..and he seems to do pretty well with both formats.
 
We have legitimately had multiple pages of people arguing full season points vs. playoffs just to hide the fact that Kyle Larson is the anti-Kevin Harvick when it comes to closing things down, Larson chokes too often for his level of talent and his fans don't seem to care about holding him accountable for it.

Would you Larson fanboys prefer it if people pointed out his average finish instead? This format is perfect for Larson because it masks the deficiencies in his driving style. He tears up too many race cars by making stupid mistakes.

I actually like the playoffs but any sports fan recognizes that the best team doesn't always win the championship. Both extremes of this argument are silly. You can agree that a playoff doesn't always reward the best driver without calling for the system to be abolished. You also don't have to argue that the playoff always rewards the best driver in order to confirm its validity. Performing in the playoffs is a skill that every single other sports fanbase recognizes.

The NASCAR Cup Series Champion is deserving because they performed when it mattered, even if they weren't the best team all season. Point blank.
He does choke but I’ve never seen him do it when it matters tbh
 
How do you know what Larson's driving style would be in a different format?

Because I've been watching Kyle Larson drive stock cars for a decade now? You can usually pick up on someone's innate instincts if you watch them do something long enough. The guy was overdriving his stuff when he was with Chip Ganassi and not in regular contention for wins and championships. He overdrives his equipment and sometimes junks his cars because of it. This is an objective fact. He doesn't adjust his style because of the format, this is who he is and who he always has been.

You can admit that your favorite driver has flaws. It's okay.
 
Because I've been watching Kyle Larson drive stock cars for a decade now? You can usually pick up on someone's innate instincts if you watch them do something long enough. The guy was overdriving his stuff when he was with Chip Ganassi and not in regular contention for wins and championships. He overdrives his equipment and sometimes junks his cars because of it. This is an objective fact. He doesn't adjust his style because of the format, this is who he is and who he always has been.

You can admit that your favorite driver has flaws. It's okay.
People such as yourself have a twisted outlook of reality. Larson was brand new to pavement racing when he was driving for Ganassi. He was fast and he was going to make mistakes. Everybody but yourself knew he was a raw talent in the making. Many of us me included knew how good he was before he got to cup, but people like yourself only saw him in an inferior Ganassi car.

BTW bud, you can continue to be disrespectful, I can play with the best of em. I noticed that you don't have the courage to state what driver(s) you like, why don't you grow a pair and let us know.
 
We have legitimately had multiple pages of people arguing full season points vs. playoffs just to hide the fact that Kyle Larson is the anti-Kevin Harvick when it comes to closing things down, Larson chokes too often for his level of talent and his fans don't seem to care about holding him accountable for it.

Would you Larson fanboys prefer it if people pointed out his average finish instead? This format is perfect for Larson because it masks the deficiencies in his driving style. He tears up too many race cars by making stupid mistakes.

I actually like the playoffs but any sports fan recognizes that the best team doesn't always win the championship. Both extremes of this argument are silly. You can agree that a playoff doesn't always reward the best driver without calling for the system to be abolished. You also don't have to argue that the playoff always rewards the best driver in order to confirm its validity. Performing in the playoffs is a skill that every single other sports fanbase recognizes.

The NASCAR Cup Series Champion is deserving because they performed when it mattered, even if they weren't the best team all season. Point blank.
And that very well may be Larson this year.

We will see.

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And that very well may be Larson this year.

We will see.

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I think Larson has a good shot. In my opinion, Byron is the favorite though. He has that weird ability to show up when it counts and put himself in position to win.

Everybody but yourself knew he was a raw talent in the making.

Now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. I've never denied Larson's talent. You're setting up a straw man because you can't argue my actual points.
 
People such as yourself have a twisted outlook of reality. Larson was brand new to pavement racing when he was driving for Ganassi. He was fast and he was going to make mistakes. Everybody but yourself knew he was a raw talent in the making. Many of us me included knew how good he was before he got to cup, but people like yourself only saw him in an inferior Ganassi car.

BTW bud, you can continue to be disrespectful, I can play with the best of em. I noticed that you don't have the courage to state what driver(s) you like, why don't you grow a pair and let us know.

I think the mistakes thing with Larson is really just instinctual and habit moreso than a lack of skill, or anything like that. Tony Stewart, Jimmie Johnson, Jeff Gordon all came into cup pretty mistake free. Larson just pushes. Totally on feel.

Larson is mistake prone, but he seems to keep it together when it matters. Held off Bell, held off Reddick. I agree with NB that Larson does overdrive a bit. But he's not incapable of keeping it together, which, I expect him to for Phoenix. He should probably be the odds on favorite next weekend.



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I think Larson has a good shot. In my opinion, Byron is the favorite though. He has that weird ability to show up when it counts and put himself in position to win.



Now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. I've never denied Larson's talent. You're setting up a straw man because you can't argue my actual points.
You can come out of the closet. Who is your driver(s)
 
I think Larson has a good shot. In my opinion, Byron is the favorite though. He has that weird ability to show up when it counts and put himself in position to win.



Now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. I've never denied Larson's talent. You're setting up a straw man because you can't argue my actual points.
I think Byron is underdog.

He frankly hasn't really had the dominant race winning speed all year outside of Watkins Glen, and Vegas...the later of which was won due to a late yellow. He's had top 5-7 speed most of the year and has capitalized on a lot of missfortune to win races.

And that execution (and resulting playoff points) would get him to Phoenix. But to be the favorite?

I don't think we can bank on the championship race falling into his lap. Most teams will be on their game. And the fact is, Larson has been faster than Byron these playoffs (all year really). Bell has been faster than Byron these playoffs - specifically the last 3 races, Darlington and Bristol. Blaney has been faster these playoffs as well.

It's why I never supported the Byron favorite narrative, and believe it's 2008 Kyle Busch level naive hyperbole. He hasn't been fast enough all year, in terms of raw pace to compete with the 5/11/19. And you figure that other teams would find extra speed in the playoffs. And they did. I think at this point in the season, you can reasonably say the 5, 11, 12 and 20 are all faster than him.

Now, maybe he pulls a 2015 KB, where he has speed in a one off in the playoffs...or maybe a 2019 Kyle Busch where the other Toyota's did everything they could to gift it to him.

But generally, raw pace at this point in the season is kind of the greatest indicator of champion. And every single year of the playoff era, legitimately every single one, the champion was either the fastest car of the year, or the fastest car of the playoffs. Byron is neither of those according to autoracinganalytics.com.

I think he's the underdog. But favorite? History and speed isn't on his side.

If history is any indication, speed and momentum is the best indicator. I think you can throw a blanket over the 5/12 as favorites.

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Byron is much improved, he went from 2 wins last year to 6 wins this year. Blaney is on a hot streak, Larson and Bell were already in place. I don't see a head and shoulders above favorite. Any of them will make a worthy champion in my book. Blaney and Bell have the least amount of wins at 3, but I don't think that matters much.
 
Am I time traveling?

I feel like I've seen this conversation before lol

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Byron is much improved, he went from 2 wins last year to 6 wins this year. Blaney is on a hot streak, Larson and Bell were already in place. I don't see a head and shoulders above favorite. Any of them will make a worthy champion in my book.
Totally. But if I had to break it down, which I'd like to - it's fun - I would give an edge to the 5/12


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My avatar is literally the Hail Melon. I mostly root for Trackhouse and can admit that Chastain has flaws as a driver.
I like Ross and the Amigo also. It was pretty funny on MRN, they were giving a blow by blow of Suarez and Reddick going at in the back of the pack. Amigo has a temper lol.
 
I think Byron is underdog.

He frankly hasn't really had the dominant race winning speed all year outside of Watkins Glen, and Vegas...the later of which was won due to a late yellow. He's had top 5-7 speed most of the year and has capitalized on a lot of missfortune to win races.

And that execution (and resulting playoff points) would get him to Phoenix. But to be the favorite?

I don't think we can bank on the championship race falling into his lap. Most teams will be on their game. And the fact is, Larson has been faster than Byron these playoffs (all year really). Bell has been faster than Byron these playoffs - specifically the last 3 races, Darlington and Bristol. Blaney has been faster these playoffs as well.

It's why I never supported the Byron favorite narrative, and believe it's 2008 Kyle Busch level naive hyperbole. He hasn't been fast enough all year, in terms of raw pace to compete with the 5/11/19. And you figure that other teams would find extra speed in the playoffs. And they did. I think at this point in the season, you can reasonably say the 5, 11, 12 and 20 are all faster than him.

Now, maybe he pulls a 2015 KB, where he has speed in a one off in the playoffs...or maybe a 2019 Kyle Busch where the other Toyota's did everything they could to gift it to him.

But generally, raw pace at this point in the season is kind of the greatest indicator of champion. And every single year of the playoff era, legitimately every single one, the champion was either the fastest car of the year, or the fastest car of the playoffs. Byron is neither of those according to autoracinganalytics.com.

I think he's the underdog. But favorite? History and speed isn't on his side.

If history is any indication, speed and momentum is the best indicator. I think you can throw a blanket over the 5/12 as favorites.

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I can see this point. Byron is the least likely of the championship four to make a mistake that takes him out of contention so he'll be there if the other three have issues. I also think he's the most consistent of the four. Blaney and Bell can be streaky and Larson is prone to mistakes (as we've discussed ad nauseam).

I like Ross and the Amigo also. It was pretty funny on MRN, they were giving a blow by blow of Suarez and Reddick going at in the back of the pack. Amigo has a temper lol.

I hope the team gets back to 2022 form next year. Something was off this year and they just didn't have the raw speed they had last year. Suarez is pretty underrated as a driver and I feel like people always forget his Xfinity Series Championship. Suarez and Chastain can be championship contenders.
 
I can see this point. Byron is the least likely of the championship four to make a mistake that takes him out of contention so he'll be there if the other three have issues. I also think he's the most consistent of the four. Blaney and Bell can be streaky and Larson is prone to mistakes (as we've discussed ad nauseam).



I hope the team gets back to 2022 form next year. Something was off this year and they just didn't have the raw speed they had last year. Suarez is pretty underrated as a driver and I feel like people always forget his Xfinity Series Championship. Suarez and Chastain can be championship contenders.
Yup. I'm of the assumption that the championship 4 will be mistake free for the most part. If They aren't, then anything can happen.

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and Larson is prone to mistakes (as we've discussed ad nauseam).
I disagree. When the money is down and it is a big race, Larson is deadly. His record of winning all of the big dirt races he has won shows how he has a certain knack for doing so when the pressure is on. I think he will be the less nervous out of all of them, he has been at this point before many times. His short time at Hendrick he has one championship already in 2 full seasons and here he is knocking on the door for a second one his third year.
 
What are you talking about? Most of the tracks have torn down a third or more of their grandstands and Still can't sell out, and TV numbers are nowhere near what they were in the early 2000's. MIS for instance took about about 1/3 of a mile of grandstands that were full TWICE a year 20 years ago.
What are you talking about? When was the last time the Latford system was used? 2003, they modified it in 2004 and started the playoff system, NASCARS most popular year ever was 2005. Now if you want to get into empty seats I think that horse has been beat to death and we had a resident seat counter get banned several times, you should take his place. You have a hard on for NASCAR, that's basically all you talk about, we get it, you hate them yet for some reason you are still here.
 
I disagree. When the money is down and it is a big race, Larson is deadly. His record of winning all of the big dirt races he has won shows how he has a certain knack for doing so when the pressure is on. I think he will be the less nervous out of all of them, he has been at this point before many times. His short time at Hendrick he has one championship already in 2 full seasons and here he is knocking on the door for a second one his third year.
At Phoenix in March Larson absolutely dominated but got shuffled out in overtime and Byron got the W, Blaney finished second Larson 4th Something I've noticed the last few races is Blaney has been really fast, Visually he just looks different, I think they have hit on something and he is gonna be a tough out Sunday. I think this is gonna be a good one
 
Lets not forget that 3 of his DNF's this year are from being takin out twice by dennys patented slide up the track move and once from ross
 
What are you talking about? When was the last time the Latford system was used? 2003, they modified it in 2004 and started the playoff system, NASCARS most popular year ever was 2005. Now if you want to get into empty seats I think that horse has been beat to death and we had a resident seat counter get banned several times, you should take his place. You have a hard on for NASCAR, that's basically all you talk about, we get it, you hate them yet for some reason you are still here.
I like Stock car racing. I have no built in affinity for the organization that runs it. I judge them with a critical eye, just as I do everything else. If NASCAR wants me agree with everything they do, they're going to have to put me on payroll. By the way, a massive decline in popularity doesn't happen in a day, it takes a few years. Also, I brought up the empty seat thing ONLY as a response to SOI, who seems to think that whatever the crowd was yesterday justifies the playoff system. I just contended that their USED to be way more people in those stands.
 
The counter to that is that the win and you're in format leads to the kind of idiocy we saw yesterday. I will maintain until my last breath that the ONLY problem with the Latford System is that it didn't reward wins, top fives and top tens enough, and that could be fixed over a long lunch.
You say...
the ONLY problem with the Latford System is that it didn't reward wins, top fives and top tens

What was the good part?
 
You say...
the ONLY problem with the Latford System is that it didn't reward wins, top fives and top tens

What was the good part?
It's not that it didn't reward them, it didn't reward them ENOUGH. Easily fixable. One must remember that it was created to incentivize a full field of cars every week and reward guys that ran 6-25th, the bread and butter guys that weren't winning races, but were a big part of the show. The good part was that it put real value in consistency and finishing races, and didn't reward fluke wins or winning a race at the EXACT right time of the season. In my opinion, if you haven't been a top five driver in straight up points for the first 26 weeks, then you have absolutely no business even having a shot at a championship. I will keep saying it. Any system where a guy could win Daytona and then start and park for 24 weeks and still make the playoffs or a guy could win the first 35 races, finish second in race 36 and LOSE the championship, is so badly flawed it is absolutely comical. What we have now is style over substance.
 
It's not that it didn't reward them, it didn't reward them ENOUGH. Easily fixable. One must remember that it was created to incentivize a full field of cars every week and reward guys that ran 6-25th, the bread and butter guys that weren't winning races, but were a big part of the show. The good part was that it put real value in consistency and finishing races, and didn't reward fluke wins or winning a race at the EXACT right time of the season. In my opinion, if you haven't been a top five driver in straight up points for the first 26 weeks, then you have absolutely no business even having a shot at a championship. I will keep saying it. Any system where a guy could win Daytona and then start and park for 24 weeks and still make the playoffs or a guy could win the first 35 races, finish second in race 36 and LOSE the championship, is so badly flawed it is absolutely comical. What we have now is style over substance.s
What if they win every other race. But dnf every race they don’t win, aka Ricky Bobby? ;) :XXROFL: :XXROFL: :XXROFL: :booya::moon::eatpointe
 
a guy could win the first 35 races, finish second in race 36 and LOSE the championship,

Tom Brady and the 2007 New England Patriots would like to have a discussion with you. An undefeated team went to the Super Bowl and lost but yet no one questions the legitimacy of the New York Giants as champions of the 2007 NFL season.

Every sport has multiple examples of a dominant team that can't perform in the playoffs. That is not the strongest argument against a playoff system.
 
Tom Brady and the 2007 New England Patriots would like to have a discussion with you. An undefeated team went to the Super Bowl and lost but yet no one questions the legitimacy of the New York Giants as champions of the 2007 NFL season.

Every sport has multiple examples of a dominant team that can't perform in the playoffs. That is not the strongest argument against a playoff system.

lol you absolutely cannot compare stick n ball sports to motorsports. Apples and elephants.
 
lol you absolutely cannot compare stick n ball sports to motorsports. Apples and elephants.

Why not? Every sport has its unique quirks. Motorsports isn't some unicorn. Some baseball fans would say the same about comparing baseball to football and vice versa. Can you really compare say....golf and football? Yes. It's a sport and should be compared to other sports.
 
lol you absolutely cannot compare stick n ball sports to motorsports. Apples and elephants.
The undefeated driver in the 42& 1/2 lost to a 6-4 wild card car in double overtime. People in the know said the 42&1/2 had a pulled ball joint.
 
Why not? Every sport has its unique quirks. Motorsports isn't some unicorn. Some baseball fans would say the same about comparing baseball to football and vice versa. Can you really compare say....golf and football? Yes. It's a sport and should be compared to other sports.

There's a ton of arguments for/against a playoff system in racing, but really.....bringing up the 20o7 PaTrIoTs herp derp!!!!!! :wacko:

There's literally a hundred reasons why it's a dumb comparison. Not even worth discussing because it's that asinine.
 
Not even worth discussing because it's that asinine.

So....you have no counterargument? Okay cool.

I didn't expect anything better from someone who screams "STICK AND BALL!" Whenever someone says that, I assume they're signaling to me that they don't actually know anything about sports. Thanks for proving that correct.
 
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