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The Nature Boy said:
So....you have no counterargument? Okay cool.

I didn't expect anything better from someone who screams "STICK AND BALL!" Whenever someone says that, I assume they're signaling to me that they don't actually know anything about sports. Thanks for proving that correct.
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Because this topic has been absolutely beaten to death for the past 20 years now. Comparing a playoff system in motorsports to a playoff in any other sport is such a silly point that a counterargument isn't even necessary. But I'll tell you what, do a search on here and I'm sure you'll find what you're looking for since it has already been discussed ad nauseam.

I'm willing to bet I know as much about football, baseball, basketball, and hockey as anyone on this forum.
 
I'll tell you hwhat @The Nature Boy .....I can't sleep, so I'll go ahead and dissect this a bit.....

Hypothetically speaking, a driver that wins the first 35 races can finish 2nd in the 36th race and lose the title. You brought up the 2007 Patriots as a comparison. How do you equate the unprecedented dominance of a driver that wins 35 races to an NFL team? How many winless teams did the Pats face in the playoffs? Oh, yeah, team sports don't work like that. Apples and elephants.

The Patriots faced exactly ONE opponent in their championship match. It might be David vs Goliath, but it doesn't get any more fair than one on one. The guy who wins 35 races faces three other contenders in the final race (that are somehow equal to him, despite the results of the first 35 races), PLUS 31 other teams out there competing to win the same event. Apples and elephants.

If the 35 race winner gets wrecked while lapping a backmarker, what's the NFL equivalent to that scenario? Some defender from the Arizona Cardinals comes out of the crowd during the Super Bowl and smacks Tom Brady in the head with a chair? Game over, right? Oh, wait, there's the backup QB. Send another defender from the NY Giants to take him out too! Here comes the emergency QB, better make sure someone blasts him in the knees before he even takes the field! Come on now. There's just no relative comparison whatsoever. Apples and elephants.

Football, baseball, hockey, and the NBA all have a playoff system that is "fair" for the most part, and I doubt you'll find anyone who disagrees. NCAA basketball has the tournament which is a total crapshoot, but that's OK because everyone loves it, and there's no scenario where the best team can lose due to another team's negligence. It's still one-on-one matchups no matter how you wanna slice it. Golf and tennis are not team sports, so no reason to even go there. Again, apples and elephants.

I understand what you were trying to say in response to the jackman, but I think you were missing his point. The fact that such a situation (however unlikely) COULD actually happen, in theory, is some pretty damning evidence that NASCAR's method of determining a champion might have some flaws. Whether you agree or disagree is irrelevant.
 
2 Sweet said:
I'll tell you hwhat @The Nature Boy .....I can't sleep, so I'll go ahead and dissect this a bit.....

Hypothetically speaking, a driver that wins the first 35 races can finish 2nd in the 36th race and lose the title. You brought up the 2007 Patriots as a comparison. How do you equate the unprecedented dominance of a driver that wins 35 races to an NFL team? How many winless teams did the Pats face in the playoffs? Oh, yeah, team sports don't work like that. Apples and elephants.

The Patriots faced exactly ONE opponent in their championship match. It might be David vs Goliath, but it doesn't get any more fair than one on one. The guy who wins 35 races faces three other contenders in the final race (that are somehow equal to him, despite the results of the first 35 races), PLUS 31 other teams out there competing to win the same event. Apples and elephants.

If the 35 race winner gets wrecked while lapping a backmarker, what's the NFL equivalent to that scenario? Some defender from the Arizona Cardinals comes out of the crowd during the Super Bowl and smacks Tom Brady in the head with a chair? Game over, right? Oh, wait, there's the backup QB. Send another defender from the NY Giants to take him out too! Here comes the emergency QB, better make sure someone blasts him in the knees before he even takes the field! Come on now. There's just no relative comparison whatsoever. Apples and elephants.

Football, baseball, hockey, and the NBA all have a playoff system that is "fair" for the most part, and I doubt you'll find anyone who disagrees. NCAA basketball has the tournament which is a total crapshoot, but that's OK because everyone loves it, and there's no scenario where the best team can lose due to another team's negligence. It's still one-on-one matchups no matter how you wanna slice it. Golf and tennis are not team sports, so no reason to even go there. Again, apples and elephants.

I understand what you were trying to say in response to the jackman, but I think you were missing his point. The fact that such a situation (however unlikely) COULD actually happen, in theory, is some pretty damning evidence that NASCAR's method of determining a champion might have some flaws. Whether you agree or disagree is irrelevant.
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The point is that a team can dominate a league and not win the championship at the end of the season. See also: The 2001 Seattle Mariners. The reason why the 2007 Patriots are so frequently brought up is because it's a pretty apt rebuttal to the point of "what if a driver dominates and loses the championship?" Just because you consider it cliche doesn't render it any less of a rebuttal.

But the ability of a non-championship contender to ruin your day (and ultimately your championship run) is a feature of motorsports, playoff or not. Ask Brendan Gaughan how even a full season format can lend itself to a non-championship contender ruining your championship run. It's a feature of motorsports in much the same way that playing on different sized baseball fields is a feature of baseball. Again - every sport has its quirks. The best playoff competitors can navigate them and come out on top. If you can't perform, you don't deserve to be a champion. Period.

Finally, bad luck happens to everyone. The 2001 Mariners lost in the Division Series after setting a regular season win record. The Braves and Dodgers dominated the National League this year and were knocked out in the Division Series. The circumstances are different in each sport, but the ability of a team to lose in the playoffs after a dominant regular season is a consistent feature across every form of sport with a playoff system. I'm not missing any point. A team can go 162-0, 17-0, or 82-0 but if they don't perform in the finals, they don't walk away with the trophy. That's sports.
 
The Nature Boy said:
The point is that a team can dominate a league and not win the championship at the end of the season. See also: The 2001 Seattle Mariners. The reason why the 2007 Patriots are so frequently brought up is because it's a pretty apt rebuttal to the point of "what if a driver dominates and loses the championship?" Just because you consider it cliche doesn't render it any less of a rebuttal.

But the ability of a non-championship contender to ruin your day (and ultimately your championship run) is a feature of motorsports, playoff or not. Ask Brendan Gaughan how even a full season format can lend itself to a non-championship contender ruining your championship run. It's a feature of motorsports in much the same way that playing on different sized baseball fields is a feature of baseball. Again - every sport has its quirks. The best playoff competitors can navigate them and come out on top. If you can't perform, you don't deserve to be a champion. Period.

Finally, bad luck happens to everyone. The 2001 Mariners lost in the Division Series after setting a regular season win record. The Braves and Dodgers dominated the National League this year and were knocked out in the Division Series. The circumstances are different in each sport, but the ability of a team to lose in the playoffs after a dominant regular season is a consistent feature across every form of sport with a playoff system. I'm not missing any point. A team can go 162-0, 17-0, or 82-0 and lose the finals in MLB, the NBA, and NFL and not walk away with the trophy. That's sports.
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Fair rebuttal. I understand your logic, and even if we don't agree, I respect your opinion as always
 
The Nature Boy said:
The point is that a team can dominate a league and not win the championship at the end of the season. See also: The 2001 Seattle Mariners. The reason why the 2007 Patriots are so frequently brought up is because it's a pretty apt rebuttal to the point of "what if a driver dominates and loses the championship?" Just because you consider it cliche doesn't render it any less of a rebuttal.

But the ability of a non-championship contender to ruin your day (and ultimately your championship run) is a feature of motorsports, playoff or not. Ask Brendan Gaughan how even a full season format can lend itself to a non-championship contender ruining your championship run. It's a feature of motorsports in much the same way that playing on different sized baseball fields is a feature of baseball. Again - every sport has its quirks. The best playoff competitors can navigate them and come out on top. If you can't perform, you don't deserve to be a champion. Period.

Finally, bad luck happens to everyone. The 2001 Mariners lost in the Division Series after setting a regular season win record. The Braves and Dodgers dominated the National League this year and were knocked out in the Division Series. The circumstances are different in each sport, but the ability of a team to lose in the playoffs after a dominant regular season is a consistent feature across every form of sport with a playoff system. I'm not missing any point. A team can go 162-0, 17-0, or 82-0 but if they don't perform in the finals, they don't walk away with the trophy. That's sports.
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Motorsports has a mechanical element that doesn't compare to any other sport too. Not to mention flat or defective tires, cautions coming out in the middle of the pit cycle trapping you a lap down through no fault of your own, PLUS all the things that 2 Sweet spelled out so well. I do not, nor will I EVER understand people that want to put auto racing into the same box with other sports and treat it exactly the same. Much of the charm of it is that it's NOT like everything else, and the mad quest to capture one single moment in an entire season and crown a champion from that incredibly small sample size totally escapes me. Also, since the 2007 Patriots were brought up, the REAL question is should the Giants even have been in the playoffs in the first place? The quest to include everybody who MIGHT be even a little bit relevant in the playoffs simply dilutes it and makes it far more likely that an overwhelming favorite gets knocked off. In my opinion, no stick and ball sport needs or should have more teams than the division winner and one other team with the next best record in the league in the playoffs. I'm old enough to remember when baseball was two National league teams and two American league teams playing to got to the World Series, and there was NOTHING wrong with that. Add in ONE wildcard team from each league if you must, but that's it. We have HORRIBLY diluted the prestige of even BEING a playoff team.
 
“You look at the talent of the people out there, the way these cars equalize the field. On any given day you see organizations that rise to the top. … I think it opens the sport up. I think it’s what Jim France wanted and what NASCAR wanted, and the fans wanted, to equalize the field and see multiple people have shots to win races.”

www.motorsport.com

Rick Hendrick: "NASCAR is getting what it wants" with Next Gen car

www.motorsport.com www.motorsport.com
 
I think a playoff format in racing is fairly and deservedly a legitimately champion crowning system, so long as it's within the context of all teams and all drivers executing race strategy and set up within the context of the system.

If teams all foolishly went for the full season execution, and played it out that way, sure, the format doesn't mesh.

But the fact is, no one is regular season points racing really. All teams are playing by the same rules, and doing the best that THEY can to execute with the rules they have.

And if you make the finale, you're best was good enough to do so in the most important time of the year.

And you know what else? Every single year in this elimination format, the champion was the fastest car, or one of the two fastest cars not just when it mattered, but all year.

2014: Harvick was fast, Harvick, Gordon and Logano
2015: Harvick and Logano were balls fast, but the 18 was the fastest car when he returned
2016: Johnson started the season super fast, and was the fastest car in the 10 races
2017: Truex dominated all year
2018: Logano has the speed at the end of the season when it matters
2019: Busch was the dominant driver all year
2020: People look at that season with Harvick colored glasses but Elliott was the fastest car that year, by far. Similar to Larson this year where races were thrown away. He was the fastest in the playoffs.
2021: Larson dominated
2022: Logano played the system, won his races and won races that mattered

Regardless of the format, the fastest car basically has won the title.

Regular season format stuff is just dumb. Teams don't try to score the most points, so in a format where EVERYONE is playing to the playoffs, scoring the "most points" is not indicative of a deserving champion.

All of the formats have one thing in common, regardless of how enjoyable they may be. The champion is equally deserving.


That said, give me back the Chase ;)

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
 
RE: The Chase

Honestly I don't know why NASCAR still has the playoff format. It creates drama, it creates exciting moments and it affects the drivers and team both on the track and off the track. However, those moments like the Hail Melon doesn't translate into increased viewership during the final 10 races and as we've seen year after year since 2004, viewership continues to drop in the last 10 races when the NFL season starts up.

Of course there's also the question about the legitimacy of the championships under these various formats as some teams have figured out that you win a race early, lock in your spot, and you can use the rest of the regular season as a test session for the playoffs. There's also the issue of NASCAR handing out playoff waivers like candy, most noticeably in 2015. Kyle Busch shouldn't have been crowned the championship in 2015.

IMHO since NASCAR seem to be dead-set on keeping the playoffs around (for whatever reasons) here are the changes that I propose. Get rid of the Round of 16. This is the most boring part of the playoffs because the only one that gets eliminated are drivers and teams that didn't have a chance of making it into the final 4 anyways. I would 100% reduce the playoff field back to 10 or maybe 12 with two wildcards. So playoffs start with the Round of 12, goes to 8, and then 4. Final change would be the Round of 4 would consist of 3 races instead of just 1 and the tracks used during those three races will be rotated. This isn't the best system, but IMHO, it's better than the one NASCAR currently has.
 
StandOnIt said:
“You look at the talent of the people out there, the way these cars equalize the field. On any given day you see organizations that rise to the top. … I think it opens the sport up. I think it’s what Jim France wanted and what NASCAR wanted, and the fans wanted, to equalize the field and see multiple people have shots to win races.”

www.motorsport.com

Rick Hendrick: "NASCAR is getting what it wants" with Next Gen car

www.motorsport.com www.motorsport.com
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Well as long as NASCAR gets what THEY want...... As for the fans, they are always talking about what the fans want, but I've been around for 40+ years now, I don't remember ever being asked. All the fan council wanted to talk about was nickel-dime issues that don't mean squat in the big picture.
 
SpeedPagan said:
viewership continues to drop in the last 10 races when the NFL season starts up.
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No one wants to say this but the NFL has become such a behemoth in the last 15-20 years that it makes sense for NASCAR to wrap up the season on Labor Day weekend in order to avoid conflict with the NFL. There's no competing with the NFL. I would get rid of the playoffs and wrap up the season with the Southern 500 on Labor Day weekend. But NASCAR probably makes more money from TV rights by having a 36 race season so the economics may not agree with me.

We don't really have a way to measure whether or not the playoffs helps to stem the bleeding. Would ratings be worse if not for it? Hard to tell. I can see some fans tuning out if their driver is eliminated from contention by the start of NFL season. You're right that it hasn't lead to growth, but it's hard to tell whether or not it keeps the existing fanbases interested.
 
The Nature Boy said:
No one wants to say this but the NFL has become such a behemoth in the last 15-20 years that it makes sense for NASCAR to wrap up the season on Labor Day weekend in order to avoid conflict with the NFL. There's no competing with the NFL. I would get rid of the playoffs and wrap up the season with the Southern 500 on Labor Day weekend. But NASCAR probably makes more money from TV rights by having a 36 race season so the economics may not agree with me.

We don't really have a way to measure whether or not the playoffs helps to stem the bleeding. Would ratings be worse if not for it? Hard to tell. I can see some fans tuning out if their driver is eliminated from contention by the start of NFL season. You're right that it hasn't lead to growth, but it's hard to tell whether or not it keeps the existing fanbases interested.
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Spoken like a true casual racing fan. Looking forward to the California dirt races coming up, then the Tulsa shootout, followed by the Chili Bowl.
 
The Nature Boy said:
No one wants to say this but the NFL has become such a behemoth in the last 15-20 years that it makes sense for NASCAR to wrap up the season on Labor Day weekend in order to avoid conflict with the NFL. There's no competing with the NFL. I would get rid of the playoffs and wrap up the season with the Southern 500 on Labor Day weekend. But NASCAR probably makes more money from TV rights by having a 36 race season so the economics may not agree with me.

We don't really have a way to measure whether or not the playoffs helps to stem the bleeding. Would ratings be worse if not for it? Hard to tell. I can see some fans tuning out if their driver is eliminated from contention by the start of NFL season. You're right that it hasn't lead to growth, but it's hard to tell whether or not it keeps the existing fanbases interested.
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If they want to keep the 36 race schedule, they could start the season earlier, but that may run into the holidays.

Hmmm, it's a thinker. 🤔
 
SpeedPagan said:
If they want to keep the 36 race schedule, they could start the season earlier, but that may run into the holidays.

Hmmm, it's a thinker. 🤔
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Then you're competing with the NFL playoffs, which puts them in an even worse position. The best answer to keeping the 36 race season would be mid-week races and doubleheaders.
 
The chase playoffs just needs a few tweaks.

With 25 laps to go they need make it a 4 car showdown with only the top 4 cars during the finale, nothing else matters, no exceptions

With 7 laps to go they should narrow it dowm to the top two cars (everonre eligible up to tha point)
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Lots of commerial staging and gerbiling guaranteed.
Last lap walk off home run win every damn freaking time that's what I am talking about!!!.
 
The Nature Boy said:
Then you're competing with the NFL playoffs, which puts them in an even worse position. The best answer to keeping the 36 race season would be mid-week races and doubleheaders.
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If they couldn't make mid-week races work with a captive pandemic audience, what makes you think it would work under normal circumstances? I know this is a VERY unpopular opinion here, but I would absolutely lop 6 races off the schedule and put the Clash and All Star Race on regular race weekends. Even at 30 weekends, that's STILL a much longer season than any other racing series I have ever paid serious attention to. Leave people wanting more, and make each individual race that much more important.
 
"At Hendrick Motorsports, we're with arguably the top team in the sport," Larson said. "I'm confident that William (Byron) and I and our teammates will contend for championships as long as we're in one of those four cars."

 
So cute how complementary Cliff Daniels has been of the way Ross drove on Sunday. Couldn't have anything to do with pushing him back to the 5. Naw. Not a thing. Ross kissed the ring, and has gained the approval of The Felon. Now, Ross is back to his "I don't give a ****" attitude, and Marks is talking about his determination. I used to like Ross and Trackhouse. They are nothing more than a bunch of ass kissers. I wish Blaney would have walled him on his way to a championship Ross and his big mouth owner will never know.
 
The overarching issue I have with the discussion of the playoffs is something which is also known to be politically a nonstarter: what responsibility does NASCAR have to their own declining fortunes after Labor Day and what were their contributing factors? That is never going to be examined by anyone who matters, and thus it will never be acted upon. It just gets left to fans to argue about and it isn't constructive.
 
virtualbalboa said:
The overarching issue I have with the discussion of the playoffs is something which is also known to be politically a nonstarter: what responsibility does NASCAR have to their own declining fortunes after Labor Day and what were their contributing factors? That is never going to be examined by anyone who matters, and thus it will never be acted upon. It just gets left to fans to argue about and it isn't constructive.
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Whatever problem, (real or perceived) that NASCAR was trying to fix with their various playoff systems clearly hasn't born much fruit, but I see little chance in hell they make any substantive changes to it. Back in the Bill France Jr, days it seemed that if something wasn't working, they would change direction and go another way. From Brian France forward, it seems whenever something doesn't work, their answer is to double down on it and try to stuff the wrong answer down everyone's throat with double the the force. I was REALLY hoping that Ben Kennedy would be the new breath of fresh air that would force EVERYONE to look at what they were doing and be honest about what really does work, and what really doesn't. He seems to be a great kid, but so far he seems to be of the exact same mindset as everyone else in Daytona Beach. If they are spending any time looking in the mirror, it's to admire themselves, not doing any real soul searching.
 
Revman said:
So cute how complementary Cliff Daniels has been of the way Ross drove on Sunday. Couldn't have anything to do with pushing him back to the 5. Naw. Not a thing. Ross kissed the ring, and has gained the approval of The Felon. Now, Ross is back to his "I don't give a ****" attitude, and Marks is talking about his determination. I used to like Ross and Trackhouse. They are nothing more than a bunch of ass kissers. I wish Blaney would have walled him on his way to a championship Ross and his big mouth owner will never know.
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Absolute wrong take as usual. Ross wasn't doing ANYTHING wrong, and if Blaney would have just stopped bitching on the radio and trying to pass Ross, he could have settled in and they BOTH likely would have gapped the 5 by a considerable distance. Ryan let Kyle back into the game for a while because he lost focus on what the job really was, which was to beat the 5 and the 24. The 1 car was completely irrelevant to him. Once he got that through his head, all was well in the Blaney world.
 
Revman said:
So cute how complementary Cliff Daniels has been of the way Ross drove on Sunday. Couldn't have anything to do with pushing him back to the 5. Naw. Not a thing. Ross kissed the ring, and has gained the approval of The Felon. Now, Ross is back to his "I don't give a ****" attitude, and Marks is talking about his determination. I used to like Ross and Trackhouse. They are nothing more than a bunch of ass kissers. I wish Blaney would have walled him on his way to a championship Ross and his big mouth owner will never know.
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It was probably because Trackhouse and Ross spanked the field ya think? They all had plenty of time to catch Ross but they couldn't. Ross dominated the race with most laps led.
Go listen to the Radioactive post, you will learn something. Roger Penske was working overtime in Blaney's ear. I think Roger gets credit for winning the last race and the title as much as Blaney. The Captain talked Blaney away from a total meltdown.
 
Revman said:
So cute how complementary Cliff Daniels has been of the way Ross drove on Sunday. Couldn't have anything to do with pushing him back to the 5. Naw. Not a thing. Ross kissed the ring, and has gained the approval of The Felon. Now, Ross is back to his "I don't give a ****" attitude, and Marks is talking about his determination. I used to like Ross and Trackhouse. They are nothing more than a bunch of ass kissers. I wish Blaney would have walled him on his way to a championship Ross and his big mouth owner will never know.
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The stuff you choose to complain about, and with the typical Rev perspective, always cracks me up. I look forward to your future rants about "Cutie Pie Bowman"
 
Formerjackman said:
Absolute wrong take as usual. Ross wasn't doing ANYTHING wrong, and if Blaney would have just stopped bitching on the radio and trying to pass Ross, he could have settled in and they BOTH likely would have gapped the 5 by a considerable distance. Ryan let Kyle back into the game for a while because he lost focus on what the job really was, which was to beat the 5 and the 24. The 1 car was completely irrelevant to him. Once he got that through his head, all was well in the Blaney world.
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I think the Toyota glasses prevent seeing the picture accurately.
 
Formerjackman said:
Absolute wrong take as usual. Ross wasn't doing ANYTHING wrong, and if Blaney would have just stopped bitching on the radio and trying to pass Ross, he could have settled in and they BOTH likely would have gapped the 5 by a considerable distance. Ryan let Kyle back into the game for a while because he lost focus on what the job really was, which was to beat the 5 and the 24. The 1 car was completely irrelevant to him. Once he got that through his head, all was well in the Blaney world.
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Does Ross drive the 5 or the 24 that way? No.
 
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