How will NASCAR enforce this?

Kevin Harvick raises questions about NASCAR penalty

Kevin Harvick was ready for the questions about his team’s penalty Friday at ISM Raceway.

As NASCAR’s moderator asked the driver about his success at the track, Harvick said: “Nobody wants to talk about that, let’s just go to the first question.’’

So began a press conference where Harvick set the tone. He questioned NASCAR’s penalty, said NASCAR’s reaction was done to “appease” social media, and raised issue with a penalty coming out days after the event.

“The car was built to tolerance,’’ Harvick said. “The scary part for me is the fact that we went far enough to find something on the car at the NASCAR R&D center. They could find something wrong with every car if they took it apart for a whole day at the R&D center.’’

NASCAR ruled Wednesday that the rear window bracing had not kept the rear window glass rigid in all directions at all times during Sunday’s race — an issue raised shortly after the race on social media via pictures of Harvick’s car. NASCAR also stated that car’s side skirts were not aluminum.

NASCAR docked Harvick the seven playoff points he earned in his Las Vegas victory (race win and two stage wins), took 20 driver points from him, fined crew chief Rodney Childers $50,000, suspended the team’s car chief two races and docked the team 20 owner points

Asked if he would he would have won without those issues at Las Vegas, Harvick said: “Absolutely. Hands down.’’

Harvick said it was the team’s fault for having steel side skirts, noting the team overlooked a recent bulletin noting the change. Harvick said a window brace failed.

“You could have called the window attached to the brace penalty on 20 cars last week, easy,’’ he said.

Harvick said that finding penalties via pictures on social media was going down a “slippery slope.’’

“If we want to officiate it with fan pictures – if you want to officiate it with pictures during the race and call people to pit road and do those types of things, from a NASCAR standpoint I am fine with that,” he said. “As long as it is consistent. As you can see, from a lot of the pictures roaming around on the internet this week, it is not consistent.”

Harvick suggested that social media helping officials with rules only will repeat what happened in golf.

“I compare it to golf,’’ he said. “It failed miserably when you look at Lexi Thompson and the outrage of the players and things that have happened the last couple years.’’

LPGA officials — after being alerted via email from a television viewer— assessed a four-stroke penalty to Thompson during one of the tour’s major championship events last April. The infraction happened in the third round and wasn’t discovered until the next day when Thompson had six holes to play in the final round. She went from being three strokes ahead to down by one. She lost in a playoff.

That’s why Harvick suggest officials are the best to handle penalties.

“The officials in the garage do a great job,’’ he said. “It just feels like it is a micromanaged situation from above what these guys do in the garage, to appease people sitting on social media and trying to officiate a sporting event instead of letting these guys in the garage do what they do and do a great job with it week in and week out. That is the frustrating part.

Harvick also raised questions about penalties coming out well after an event.

“The root of the problem is that my friends that don’t follow racing are very confused on a penalty that comes out on Wednesday,’’ he said. “That is the part we need to fix.’’


http://nascar.nbcsports.com/2018/03/09/kevin-harvick-raises-questions-about-nascar-penalty/
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
Kevin Harvick raises questions about NASCAR penalty

Kevin Harvick was ready for the questions about his team’s penalty Friday at ISM Raceway.

As NASCAR’s moderator asked the driver about his success at the track, Harvick said: “Nobody wants to talk about that, let’s just go to the first question.’’

So began a press conference where Harvick set the tone. He questioned NASCAR’s penalty, said NASCAR’s reaction was done to “appease” social media, and raised issue with a penalty coming out days after the event.

“The car was built to tolerance,’’ Harvick said. “The scary part for me is the fact that we went far enough to find something on the car at the NASCAR R&D center. They could find something wrong with every car if they took it apart for a whole day at the R&D center.’’

NASCAR ruled Wednesday that the rear window bracing had not kept the rear window glass rigid in all directions at all times during Sunday’s race — an issue raised shortly after the race on social media via pictures of Harvick’s car. NASCAR also stated that car’s side skirts were not aluminum.

NASCAR docked Harvick the seven playoff points he earned in his Las Vegas victory (race win and two stage wins), took 20 driver points from him, fined crew chief Rodney Childers $50,000, suspended the team’s car chief two races and docked the team 20 owner points

Asked if he would he would have won without those issues at Las Vegas, Harvick said: “Absolutely. Hands down.’’

Harvick said it was the team’s fault for having steel side skirts, noting the team overlooked a recent bulletin noting the change. Harvick said a window brace failed.

“You could have called the window attached to the brace penalty on 20 cars last week, easy,’’ he said.

Harvick said that finding penalties via pictures on social media was going down a “slippery slope.’’

“If we want to officiate it with fan pictures – if you want to officiate it with pictures during the race and call people to pit road and do those types of things, from a NASCAR standpoint I am fine with that,” he said. “As long as it is consistent. As you can see, from a lot of the pictures roaming around on the internet this week, it is not consistent.”

Harvick suggested that social media helping officials with rules only will repeat what happened in golf.

“I compare it to golf,’’ he said. “It failed miserably when you look at Lexi Thompson and the outrage of the players and things that have happened the last couple years.’’

LPGA officials — after being alerted via email from a television viewer— assessed a four-stroke penalty to Thompson during one of the tour’s major championship events last April. The infraction happened in the third round and wasn’t discovered until the next day when Thompson had six holes to play in the final round. She went from being three strokes ahead to down by one. She lost in a playoff.

That’s why Harvick suggest officials are the best to handle penalties.

“The officials in the garage do a great job,’’ he said. “It just feels like it is a micromanaged situation from above what these guys do in the garage, to appease people sitting on social media and trying to officiate a sporting event instead of letting these guys in the garage do what they do and do a great job with it week in and week out. That is the frustrating part.

Harvick also raised questions about penalties coming out well after an event.

“The root of the problem is that my friends that don’t follow racing are very confused on a penalty that comes out on Wednesday,’’ he said. “That is the part we need to fix.’’


http://nascar.nbcsports.com/2018/03/09/kevin-harvick-raises-questions-about-nascar-penalty/
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As he should. I've tried to stay off social media lately because it's a cancer but I saw a lot of discussion about it yesterday among knowledgeable people and there's a lot of debate here.

Did Stewart-Haas appeal? If so, I've got a feeling they might have a strong case here.



I also don't like the precedent here. We just going to issue penalties and/or change rules when one guy dominates because social media doesn't like the driver who is dominating?
 
Whatever, social media is exactly why Chase got dinged last year and nobody bitched about the couch officials then. People thought it was funny. Because 24 car.
 
The assumption here is that NASCAR would not have found the issue on the 4 car if people hadn't brought it to their attention. We don't know that at all. We also don't know if the issue was driven by other team's complaints instead of social media. If Chase Elliott saw it, others likely did too. Regardless of how it was found, the car did not meet the rulebook standard. pretty had to argue that. As much as I am not a real big fan of the final inspection coming until Tuesday or Wednesday, if we are indeed going to officiate the cars this tightly and ferret out all of the "cheaters" which most people seem to be in favor of, then I don't know a better way.
 
I think that NASCAR should have black flagged the 4 car and made them fix it or any other car with that issue or one that can be seen during the race. I wonder what Harvick's view would have been then? I don't think he would have won the race if he'd have had to fix it behind the wall and then go back out on the track.
 
Towmater said:
I think that NASCAR should have black flagged the 4 car and made them fix it or any other car with that issue or one that can be seen during the race. I wonder what Harvick's view would have been then? I don't think he would have won the race if he'd have had to fix it behind the wall and then go back out on the track.
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It wasn't an issue until after tech was over.

I'm with Jaws here. If that car passes "Postrace Tech", then that's that. If they take it to R&D and find something else, use what was found to better enforce the rules the following race.

The NFL can take away a touchdown on the field. They can suspend a player after the game. But they don't turn around, three days after a game, say they missed a call and then issue penalties that undo touchdowns. If they did that, the New England Patriots would be seven-time Super Bowl Champions.
 
Please let's not do the NFL comparisons. Every inclination NASCAR has ever had to think of itself in those terms has been harmful. This is motorsports, not team athletics.

NASCAR actually does buy into the don't change the race results after the event ethic, which is why they don't strip the wins themselves. They should though. Many other sports do strip victories, medals, and championships when evidence of cheating is discovered, but that isn't the relevant comparison. Race cars that fail the post-race technical inspection, however long that process is proscribed to be, should be disqualified and scored in last place for the event.
 
gnomesayin said:
Please let's not do the NFL comparisons. Every inclination NASCAR has ever had to think of itself in those terms has been harmful. This is motorsports, not team athletics.

NASCAR actually does buy into the don't change the race results after the event ethic, which is why they don't strip the wins themselves. They should though. Many other sports do strip victories, medals, and championships when evidence of cheating is discovered, but that isn't the relevant comparison. Race cars that fail the post-race technical inspection, however long that process is proscribed to be, should be disqualified and scored in last place for the event.
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I like what Bobby Labonte said on RH today, if the car passes pre race, then its good, there shouldnt be a post race inspection, that was the short of what he said.
 
jws926 said:
I like what Bobby Labonte said on RH today, if the car passes pre race, then its good, there shouldnt be a post race inspection, that was the short of what he said.
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Bobby is certainly aware that engineers are a little smarter than that, and know how to design parts to 'fail' in helpful ways. That kind of creativity becomes its own expensive arms race if allowed.
 
gnomesayin said:
Bobby is certainly aware that engineers are a little smarter than that, and know how to design parts to 'fail' in helpful ways. That kind of creativity becomes its own expensive arms race if allowed.
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Of course he does, I think has become expensive arms race already.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
The NFL can take away a touchdown on the field. They can suspend a player after the game. But they don't turn around, three days after a game, say they missed a call and then issue penalties that undo touchdowns. If they did that, the New England Patriots would be seven-time Super Bowl Champions.
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You should know more than anyone that comparing any other sport to motorsports is apples to hand grenades.

Cmon man.
 
BobbyFord said:
In a few more seasons NASCAR will be just like anything stick ‘n ball.
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Towmater said:
I think that NASCAR should have black flagged the 4 car and made them fix it or any other car with that issue or one that can be seen during the race. I wonder what Harvick's view would have been then? I don't think he would have won the race if he'd have had to fix it behind the wall and then go back out on the track.
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No **** Sherlock
 
Towmater said:
I think that NASCAR should have black flagged the 4 car and made them fix it or any other car with that issue or one that can be seen during the race. I wonder what Harvick's view would have been then? I don't think he would have won the race if he'd have had to fix it behind the wall and then go back out on the track.
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They certainly should have
 
The bully Harv is whining ...... its hilarious :lol2: Sure ...... that extra few hundred pounds of downforce didn't help him win at all :rolleyes:
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
It wasn't an issue until after tech was over.

I'm with Jaws here. If that car passes "Postrace Tech", then that's that. If they take it to R&D and find something else, use what was found to better enforce the rules the following race.

The NFL can take away a touchdown on the field. They can suspend a player after the game. But they don't turn around, three days after a game, say they missed a call and then issue penalties that undo touchdowns. If they did that, the New England Patriots would be seven-time Super Bowl Champions.
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The car wasn't legal ........ there is video evidence to back that up. Tearing down a car before a race makes no sense anyway .... and some problems can't be found without tearing something apart
 
AdoubleU24 said:
Whatever, social media is exactly why Chase got dinged last year and nobody bitched about the couch officials then. People thought it was funny. Because 24 car.
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Weird how a guy with a level head on his shoulders and a humble attitude attracts so much negative attention, especially from people that cheer for the biggest dip****s in the sport.
 
Car wasn’t legal so penalties were justified. Harvick is gonna whine so no surprise.

No consequences for a deeper inspection discovering illegal equipment or non-legal tolerance would be horrible. That encourages cheating.

I will bet NASCAR pre and post race inspections will include pressing on the rear window area to assure integrity.
 
I don't know how the competitors look at it, but I consider post race inspection to be a two step process. At the track and at the R&D center. Nothing is official until you pass both phases. This incident is kind of proof that the engineering has exceeded the ability to catch every infraction in a hurried post race at track tear down. As long as the process is the same for every winning car, Harvick or nobody else has much room to complain in my opinion. If you know ANYTHING about NASCAR history, you know that the reason there IS a post race inspection is because the teams were cheating like hell, filling frame rails with lead shot and dumping it on the track after the start of the race, using left side tires on the right, and all manner of different cheats. Bobby Labonte KNOWS this, and I don't know why he would say something so stupid.
 
Yes, it is a ludicrous thing to say on many levels for anyone versed in auto racing. You wouldn't eliminate either pre- or post-race inspection at this level, but if forced to ditch one, it would be the pre-race.

All of this hand wringing because someone got caught, jeez. This was well done by NASCAR. It is good that they took their time. Announcing a hasty final decision on race day because of this odd impatience could be quite unwise.
 
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Nascar made an example out of the 4 car like they have done throughout their history. It's rough justice. Doesn't work to say we weren't the only ones doing it or anything else they can come up with.
 
Yeah I'm going to have to hand this one to the guys doing the teardown in NC and not so much le reddit armie. Hard to see that car passing through any sort of thorough inspection; they even found something else that no one had seen or thought of.
 
I guess we find out at
StandOnIt said:
Nascar made an example out of the 4 car like they have done throughout their history. It's rough justice. Doesn't work to say we weren't the only ones doing it or anything else they can come up with.
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This is the long and short of it. Others were doing it, Harvick won the race and the example was made to stop the practice. Makes sense to me. Did it provide enough advantage to win? Chase Elliott didn't think so I guess we will have to wait until Auto Club or Texas to find out.
 
I could be wrong, but some of this stuff they let go for awhile. Some of it is in the grey area, and a four car team has prebuilt a half a season of cars, no telling how much costs involved in development to exploit that area, so some of it I believe gets "fixed" in the off season with new rules. Window braces is a cheap fix for all of the teams that are doing it.
 
Which post-race inspection violations get you penalized and which are accepted as acceptable wear-n-tear?

Reason I’m asking is you would not think a broken brace would be overlooked, so they saw it and it passed?
 
harkin said:
Which post-race inspection violations get you penalized and which are accepted as acceptable wear-n-tear?

Reason I’m asking is you would not think a broken brace would be overlooked, so they saw it and it passed?
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Keselowski said that area wasn't being checked by the OSS people, he also said Nascar doesn't have a rule that you have to fit within after the race
 
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gnomesayin said:
Bobby is certainly aware that engineers are a little smarter than that, and know how to design parts to 'fail' in helpful ways. That kind of creativity becomes its own expensive arms race if allowed.
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That's why they tear them down. They have too. The teams have shown that they can't be trusted. Also, NASCAR doesn't want the teams messing with the car in a way that could lead to a driver being hurt to gain an advantage on the track.
 
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