Is Hendrick Motorsports no longer a Super Team?

Jimmie is the GOAT. Anybody that questions his accomplishments is in denial.

The 2018 version of JJ is not the same guy IMO. I’m not saying he doesn’t have wins in him still. But I don’t think the magic is coming back. The key difference to me is that JJ isn’t getting the most out his race car anymore.

As has been pointed out, there’s been nobody better in the sport over the past decade other than maybe Harvick at RCR, at getting the most out a car that’s not quite as good as the competition. I’m not seeing that out of Jimmie right now.

Chevrolet and HMS in particular is off right now. This has been analyzed to death. But also think that JJ has lost a little something behind the wheel. It happens to all the greats. It happened to Petty. It happened to Waltrip. It happened to Dale and even Jeff to an extent.

Jimmie has explicitly stated he has changed his mindset this season knowing that his equipment is not up to what he’s been used to running. He tore up a lot of race cars last season trying to eek out as many positions as possible, but has since allegedly been accepting what the car will give him and not pushing the limit.
 
A lot of BS in this thread.
How is JJ the GOAT when he doesn’t have the win percentage to back it up?
By win percentage comparison he’s no David Pearson.
 
A lot of BS in this thread.
How is JJ the GOAT when he doesn’t have the win percentage to back it up?
By win percentage comparison he’s no David Pearson.

Just for the record, I'm not one of the people claiming he is the GOAT, although he IS on the very short list, but I believe he is the only person in the top 7 in win percentage that has even started a race in 26 years. That's VERY important. You will find no bigger of supporter of David Pearson than me, but I think we have to be honest about competition levels in his era. Also, for much of his career, Pearson ran a partial schedule where he could cherry pick the races he felt he had the best chance to do well in, and his teams had more time to prepare for them. The same goes for Cale Yarborough late in his career. Drivers like Johnson don't have that luxury.
 
Just for the record, I'm not one of the people claiming he is the GOAT, although he IS on the very short list, but I believe he is the only person in the top 7 in win percentage that has even started a race in 26 years. That's VERY important. You will find no bigger of supporter of David Pearson than me, but I think we have to be honest about competition levels in his era. Also, for much of his career, Pearson ran a partial schedule where he could cherry pick the races he felt he had the best chance to do well in, and his teams had more time to prepare for them. The same goes for Cale Yarborough late in his career. Drivers like Johnson don't have that luxury.
Imagine the Pearson greatness if he ran every race.
I think a lot of JJs wins and success were manufactured and supported by NASCAR.
I don’t fancy any realism in NASCAR after Brian the dip****t took over. It’s when the sport began it’s downward trend in terms of popularity.
It’s impossible to compare eras. I’m not a HMS fan by any stretch of the imagination. IMO, Jimmie ain’t no Jeff Gordon and sure as hell ain’t no David Pearson.
I watch the races that appeal to me now and really don’t place much value on where the sport is today.
I’ve been here a lot of the time and I know when I’m being bull****ted. I love cars and I’ll use and extract from this sport what I need to remain interested.
But I won’t be fooled into believing I’m seeing something that isn’t there regardless of how well it’s presented.
 
Imagine the Pearson greatness if he ran every race.
He'd have a LOT more wins, but his win percentage wouldn't be as high, I'd bank on that, and THAT was what we were talking about, not total wins.
I think a lot of JJs wins and success were manufactured and supported by NASCAR.
I don't quite know what to say to this. Basically you are saying NASCAR is fixed, and if you think it IS, then why waste one second watching it or even thinking about it? If you believe Johnson's wins are manufactured, then please tell us why NASCAR would have ANY interest in propping his numbers up, a guy that has NEVER moved the needle for NASCAR fans. As I said in a earlier post, why Johnson and not Gordon? Or Dale Jr? That would have done NASCAR a LOT more good. You could make the case that Johnson's success drove fans AWAY, not to the sport.
I don’t fancy any realism in NASCAR after Brian the dip****t took over. It’s when the sport began it’s downward trend in terms of popularity.
You don't have to convince me about Brian France, I wouldn't hire the guy to scrub toilets, but that doesn't really have much to do with the subject at hand.
It’s impossible to compare eras. I’m not a HMS fan by any stretch of the imagination. IMO, Jimmie ain’t no Jeff Gordon and sure as hell ain’t no David Pearson.
I agree, you CAN'T truly compare eras, but that works BOTH ways. You can't just say that Johnson wouldn't have matched up to Pearson in the 60's and 70's, and then say with certainty that Pearson would have beat Johnson in this era. As for Jeff Gordon, of whom I am a commited fan, the truth is that heads up, Johnson beat Gordon's a** like a drum.
 
Decent day for HMS yesterday. 2 in the top 10 and 3 in the top 11. I think Bowman was even running 8th or so late in the going, but it may have been due to pit stops. The 9 team definitely hit on something as they struggled the entire weekend to find speed in race trim. Chase once again showed what he can do when given a decent car - passing one of the big 3 for the lead and holding off a strong SHR car to win a stage. Bravo. Was the 4-wide on the front stretch fiery enough for those that say he lacks? :rolleyes: I expect this to be a huge momentum boost for them to finish out the next 6 races and I think he's a threat this week at Pocono.

It's pretty clear the weakness of HMS right now is the 1.5's. Obviously a huge problem, but if they can get that right (may not happen this year), they'll be perfectly ok.
 
At least it LOOKED like something that might be called progress. All four cars showed a certain amount of speed at times, and the 9 looked great until it seemed like they weren't able to keep up with the track in the third stage. I can deal with HMS not being a threat to win right now IF I see some forward progress. I'd even be willing to throw 2018 away if it meant they would be where they should be in 2019, but I need to see improvement month to month.
 
At least it LOOKED like something that might be called progress. All four cars showed a certain amount of speed at times, and the 9 looked great until it seemed like they weren't able to keep up with the track in the third stage. I can deal with HMS not being a threat to win right now IF I see some forward progress. I'd even be willing to throw 2018 away if it meant they would be where they should be in 2019, but I need to see improvement month to month.

I have referenced this before....MY Toyotas and 2014. Those years make the good years so sweet. Chevy will get through this.
 
At least it LOOKED like something that might be called progress. All four cars showed a certain amount of speed at times, and the 9 looked great until it seemed like they weren't able to keep up with the track in the third stage. I can deal with HMS not being a threat to win right now IF I see some forward progress. I'd even be willing to throw 2018 away if it meant they would be where they should be in 2019, but I need to see improvement month to month.
Not sure if you were listening to the radio but it was interesting. Chase didn't really complain about his car the entire race. He said his balance was fine and he didn't feel like it changed much at all if any, he just felt like those guys around him got better. That's why Alan didn't make any adjustments on it all day. Probably would've only hurt it. So all things considered, they had a damn good car to be able to stay in the top 5 with no adjustments on a changing track.
 
Not sure if you were listening to the radio but it was interesting. Chase didn't really complain about his car the entire race. He said his balance was fine and he didn't feel like it changed much at all if any, he just felt like those guys around him got better. That's why Alan didn't make any adjustments on it all day. Probably would've only hurt it. So all things considered, they had a damn good car to be able to stay in the top 5 with no adjustments on a changing track.
Yep. From what I heard a piece of tape on the grill and tire pressure adjustments is all that was changed.
 
That's somewhat encouraging. If they can start being best in class (anyone not in a JGR/FR/SHR car) most of the time, that would be a good start. At some point though, you have to actually be faster than those guys once in awhile. You learn a LOT more running like Chase did yesterday too. You don't learn much running 14th.
 
5 Chevy's finished in the top 12 this week with three of them being Hendrick cars. Going back to Pocono for the second time with a bit of a book from the previous race to go by.
 
new hamshire typically isn't the best place to get a real guage on who is fast. Its a very sensitive track to pass on. take a car that is leading the race and put them back in 15th and its common for them to make little to no progress. on the flip side its common for a 15th place car to be capable of leading the race and holding it for quite some time. just because chase was up front doesn't mean his car was really any better than the guys he was racing around. I am sick of the big 3 winning all the races. Its getting to be a real turn off.
 
I don't know man its one thing for Bowman and Byron to struggle we expected Byron to have some learning curves being a rookie but when Jimmie Johnson a 7 time champion is getting lapped every week and is winless for the season it makes you wonder whats going on there.

also makes stewart/hass smart for changing to fords and getting away from hendrick power maybe they saw this coming and thats why they switched.
SHR, did see the writing on the wall, and they said as much. They knew that Chevrolet was backing off from their factory support and SHR made that change.
 
I hear you, but is he carrying that car?

Does Jimmie Johnson lack talent?
Larson could be carrying the car, but only to an extent. JJ has talent, but not in the capacity that the announcers in the booth give him.
When they give him a crappy car, he cannot hang onto it if his life depended on it. KB I will admit can drive, and will make the best of what he’s given. JJ can’t do that.
 
Larson could be carrying the car, but only to an extent. JJ has talent, but not in the capacity that the announcers in the booth give him.
When they give him a crappy car, he cannot hang onto it if his life depended on it. KB I will admit can drive, and will make the best of what he’s given. JJ can’t do that.


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Larson could be carrying the car, but only to an extent. JJ has talent, but not in the capacity that the announcers in the booth give him.
When they give him a crappy car, he cannot hang onto it if his life depended on it. KB I will admit can drive, and will make the best of what he’s given. JJ can’t do that.

Damn.

That's cold, I don't agree, but an opinion is an opinion.
 
Damn.
That's cold, I don't agree, but an opinion is an opinion.
Ok, find evidence that supports the contrary.
I wasn’t being cold on purpose. It just seems that every race, and I mean every race, that JJ had a poor handling car, he either was multiple laps down or crashed. I admit, it wasn’t many races, but it did show.
new hamshire typically isn't the best place to get a real guage on who is fast. Its a very sensitive track to pass on. take a car that is leading the race and put them back in 15th and its common for them to make little to no progress. on the flip side its common for a 15th place car to be capable of leading the race and holding it for quite some time. just because chase was up front doesn't mean his car was really any better than the guys he was racing around. I am sick of the big 3 winning all the races. Its getting to be a real turn off.
I don’t care for the big three winning 70% of them either, it’s boring.
 
Larson could be carrying the car, but only to an extent. JJ has talent, but not in the capacity that the announcers in the booth give him.
When they give him a crappy car, he cannot hang onto it if his life depended on it. KB I will admit can drive, and will make the best of what he’s given. JJ can’t do that.

Evidently you missed the numerous times Jeff Gordon commented that Johnson's setups were pretty much useless to him because he simply could not drive a car as loose as Johnson liked it. When you saw Johnson spin out, it was likely because the car was so loose, NOBODY could drive that way for very long. It's no real secret that the 48's setups were fast, but brutal to drive. Maybe if Jimmie Johnson cured cancer or walked on water, he could get HALF the credit that other drivers get for accomplishing less.
 
There’s probably a way to find that stats on this, but I’d bet that Jimmie has to be leading in the “spun but didn’t crash” category. He drives it on the edge but damn sure knows how to keep it collected if it steps out.
 
Evidently you missed the numerous times Jeff Gordon commented that Johnson's setups were pretty much useless to him because he simply could not drive a car as loose as Johnson liked it. When you saw Johnson spin out, it was likely because the car was so loose, NOBODY could drive that way for very long. It's no real secret that the 48's setups were fast, but brutal to drive. Maybe if Jimmie Johnson cured cancer or walked on water, he could get HALF the credit that other drivers get for accomplishing less.
It’s called adapting to the car. If JJ couldn’t adapt, even a little bit, he was junk. JG was biased, he owns the 48. We will see what happens when chad leaves the team.
There’s probably a way to find that stats on this, but I’d bet that Jimmie has to be leading in the “spun but didn’t crash” category. He drives it on the edge but damn sure knows how to keep it collected if it steps out.
I’d be willing to bet that you put the top 20 drivers in identical cars, JJ would be middle of the pack, at best.
 
Larson could be carrying the car, but only to an extent. JJ has talent, but not in the capacity that the announcers in the booth give him.
When they give him a crappy car, he cannot hang onto it if his life depended on it. KB I will admit can drive, and will make the best of what he’s given. JJ can’t do that.

Right now I'd argue that the Ganassi cars are the best of the Chevrolet cars. McMurray's car has shown tremendous speed this year at the Brobs. If Larson can ever figure out how to beat Kyle Busch, he'll get a lot more wins.
 
Here is an interview with Kasey Kahne , at 23 min. mark he is asked about new Camaro.

 
Thanks to Kasey for giving an unfiltered non-politically correct answer to the Camaro question.
 
Here is an interview with Kasey Kahne , at 23 min. mark he is asked about new Camaro.
Also a KK reference to next year at about 22 minutes, something along the lines of... expecting LFR to continue getting better in the remaining part of this year and continuing on into next year.

Its a revealing comment, IMO, because LFR doesn't have the resources to pay Kasey a lot of money. And whatever contract settlement Kasey had with Rick Hendrick would be for 2018 only. At the time he signed with LFR, Kasey did say it was a one-year deal, and both sides would see how it went before considering the future. So I'm sure KK fans would be glad to hear that FWIW.
 
It’s called adapting to the car. If JJ couldn’t adapt, even a little bit, he was junk. JG was biased, he owns the 48. We will see what happens when chad leaves the team.

I’d be willing to bet that you put the top 20 drivers in identical cars, JJ would be middle of the pack, at best.

How did you come to that conclusion? How do you know how well the cars are handling relative to his performance?
 
Also a KK reference to next year at about 22 minutes, something along the lines of... expecting LFR to continue getting better in the remaining part of this year and continuing on into next year.

Its a revealing comment, IMO, because LFR doesn't have the resources to pay Kasey a lot of money. And whatever contract settlement Kasey had with Rick Hendrick would be for 2018 only. At the time he signed with LFR, Kasey did say it was a one-year deal, and both sides would see how it went before considering the future. So I'm sure KK fans would be glad to hear that FWIW.
if you are KK you are not going to sign a longer term deal than 1 year. a better ride might come available. you never know whats going to happen and what could open up. Its interesting he said that even last year larson was the only one that could make the chevy run. he said the camaro was a disappointment but he also alluded to there being problems last year too. That is true. it may not be all the fault of the car.
 
It’s called adapting to the car. If JJ couldn’t adapt, even a little bit, he was junk. JG was biased, he owns the 48. We will see what happens when chad leaves the team.

I’d be willing to bet that you put the top 20 drivers in identical cars, JJ would be middle of the pack, at best.
A unfortunate hot take.
 
It’s called adapting to the car. If JJ couldn’t adapt, even a little bit, he was junk. JG was biased, he owns the 48. We will see what happens when chad leaves the team.
You are incredibly misinformed.

JJ won 7 championships, 5 of those in consecutive years. There are many interviews over the years with team members and engineers of the #48 team that talk about how JJ has some of best ability to will a 10th place car to victory. Nobody wins this many races and championships without that kind of unique talent.

In today’s racing, HMS is not bad. Other teams are just that much better and have invested more time/money into their craft. They get out what they put in.

Also, Knaus has signed on for 2 more years. Tough chance Chad and Johnson ever part ways. Hendrick has learned from his mistake by letting Ray go.
 
Here is a large part of the problem, unlike the 5 Toyota's which are a thinly veiled factory team, the Chevrolet's are separate teams with separate engineering, engines, etc.
Childress wanted Chevrolet NASCAR team coalition
Richard Childress Racing wanted the Chevrolet NASCAR Cup Series teams to form an alliance early in the season to get on top of the 2018 Camaro during its struggles

https://www.autosport.com/nascar/news/137626/rcr-wanted-team-coalition-during-new-chevy-woe
 
Here is a large part of the problem, unlike the 5 Toyota's which are a thinly veiled factory team, the Chevrolet's are separate teams with separate engineering, engines, etc.
Childress wanted Chevrolet NASCAR team coalition
Richard Childress Racing wanted the Chevrolet NASCAR Cup Series teams to form an alliance early in the season to get on top of the 2018 Camaro during its struggles

https://www.autosport.com/nascar/news/137626/rcr-wanted-team-coalition-during-new-chevy-woe
Funny. They can't even get in line correctly on a Superspeedway, let alone this.
 
Here is a large part of the problem, unlike the 5 Toyota's which are a thinly veiled factory team, the Chevrolet's are separate teams with separate engineering, engines, etc.
Childress wanted Chevrolet NASCAR team coalition
Richard Childress Racing wanted the Chevrolet NASCAR Cup Series teams to form an alliance early in the season to get on top of the 2018 Camaro during its struggles

https://www.autosport.com/nascar/news/137626/rcr-wanted-team-coalition-during-new-chevy-woe
of course childress wants that. They are an underfunded team to gets way less for sponsorships than HMS does. They lost their full freight deal with menard. Roush wants the same deal. I mean why woudn't you? you get to tap into another teams R&D that spends way more than you are able to. Its like getting to be the well funded team without having to spend the same money. childress would be foolish not to want that. These alliances are only worth it to the extent that all partners bring something to the table. The one I think that is a better fit for HMS is ganassi. They do the engines for them already. I think chip builds their own cars though.
 
Roush wants the same deal.

Nope Roush wouldn't work with Penske when Penske switched to Fords. If you read the article this was in it:

When asked if an alliance was made difficult by teams wanting to protect their own developments, Petree said: "Yeah, that's exactly what it is.

"You work hard for everything you learn and develop, you don't want to give it away to anyone.

"That's where it gets tough. To be able to put together a really good coalition you have to give something to get. It's been hard to get people to realise the value there.

"They don't want to learn or share, but I'd rather be racing each other for the top five or 10 spot [with the benefits of shared resources]."
 
Dunning-Kruger Effect ...
LOL. Well done, Aunty. I had to Google that one, but it seems to fit the present circumstance...

"In the field of psychology, the Dunning–Kruger Effect is a cognitive bias in which people of low ability have illusory superiority and mistakenly assess their cognitive ability as greater than it is. The cognitive bias of illusory superiority comes from the inability of low-ability people to recognize their lack of ability..." (from Wikipedia)
 
Regardless, Andy was right. They could have pooled their efforts if only to become
more competitive and not give away sensitive information. Ford is doing this with their teams
and it helped to get them up to the top 10. After that SHR has pulled ahead of Penske.
RFR had nothing to offer anyone and still won't co-operate because his partner controls the purse.
 
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