NASCAR announces 2019 MENCS rules

StandOnIt said:
:D:D
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What is the relevance of a staged celebrity ride-along promotion? Maybe I just don't get the joke.

Formerjackman said:
That may be, but it doesn't make a race that the majority of people want to watch, which is where you have to strike a balance between sport and entertainment.
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Everyone is entitled to their opinion of 2018 racing, and the best way forward for Nascar. My opinion is... if Nascar becomes an entertainment property rather than a sporting contest of skill, the long-term future is very grim.
 
LewTheShoe said:
Everyone is entitled to their opinion of 2018 racing, and the best way forward for Nascar. My opinion is... if Nascar becomes an entertainment property rather than a sporting contest of skill, the long-term future is very grim.
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I think the argument will be, if it's not entertaining and the audience is dwindling, then the future is grim regardless of skill.

Coupled with, there's still plenty of skill involved, as much as any plate track (getting runs, seeing the air, side drafting, bold moves, aggressive on restarts).

We apologize for eliminating a form of racing, but we had to solve our cookie cutter problem.
 
Turtle84 said:
Either way, qualifying will be a complete joke with this package on 1.5s. Single car runs will literally be "StandOnIt" and see who's got the best aero.

Can raceday make up for it?
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Thad’s going go be every damn week
 
IanMcVittie said:
What made Nascar decide to implement the 2019 rules? It is possible that the impetus came from the race broadcasters as they have been very big losers of late. Nascar is delivering a product to the networks that sustains major year over year losses and an awful demographic. I’m not saying the networks told Nascar what to do specifically but they may have told them what they wanted to see.

As much as I think I won’t care for these changes I am hoping they succeed in drawing in new fans. If this change doesn’t move the needle then I hope the next one does. I know what I like to see in Nascar racing but what I like to see resulted in almost 800k fans less per race watching in 2018 versus 2017.

Bring on the flat footing, pack racing, low speed racing.:(
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For one thing if your not driving the car, it really makes no difference what the car can do.
What separates Cup drivers from the rest is the ability to control 3500 lbs with very little contact to the racing surface. That is one of the big reasons why open wheel racers don't fair well in Nascar. Back in the day they had drivers who could race in either series but lets face it the Cup cars were not far from a street car.
When your watching a race today, the cup cars have great launch ability with the high HP engines. Anyone (almost) can drag race but not all and I venture to say very few cup drivers can actually control their car and more importantly visualize their moves going down the straight away. Harvick is one because regardless, he wants his car on the bottom even if he is a bit slower. He knows with his smarts he can still pass the fast cars. He was taught this by
RCR who always raced second fiddle cars that where driven by one of the best.
Kyle Bush is another and I would say maybe smarter than Harvick but has less patience.
Truex looks good and I think his CC gets the credit for that. Brad and Joey are wheel men, unfortunately the boss (Roger) does a balancing act between costs and finishing positions.
Roger is more concerned with sponsor relationships but he also likes the wins so he does have competitive cars with drivers that can win a championship with a 3rd place car.

On another thread they talked about Lowe's and other companies making changes as sponsors
when ever "New CO's" come on board. Well Nascar just had a new CO replacing Brian France and guess what, He is making changes which in his opinion may slow the decline of fans. Will it work? Yes once everything is balanced and Nascar finds their true place in the world of sports.

Getting off the preaching stool now.
 
IanMcVittie said:
In 2018 Nascar lost almost 800k viewers per race over 2017. What is the benefit for continuing on this path?
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Nascar just made a major change and are making another at the end of the season.
Soooooooooooo, Nascar under the new CO is NOT continuing using Brian's path anymore.
It will take 2 seasons because of legal contracts. This year it is the cars and next year it will be the schedule which may include new tracks.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
What was the 'Gridiron Racing Challenge'? Obviously it wasn't a points race, and there isn't a soul in the stands. Under those circumstances, is it possible the drivers were just hamming it up?
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I would bet my pension that all 4 were chomping at the bit to win. Racers race, that's what they do. But that's just my opinion. :idunno:
 
Team Penske said:
Nascar just made a major change and are making another at the end of the season.
Soooooooooooo, Nascar under the new CO is NOT continuing using Brian's path anymore.
It will take 2 seasons because of legal contracts. This year it is the cars and next year it will be the schedule which may include new tracks.
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The intent of my post was just to respond to Lew’s statement. I liked the racing last year and would like to see it remain. However when you sustain such big losses year over year is it wise to stay the course?

One guy is telling me that attendance and attendance revenue don’t matter and the next broadcast deal is no concern. Lew tells me that if Nascar skews toward entertainment over skill that the future is VERY GRIM.
 
I think the opinion of most are partly correct. Many said last years racing was very good BUT when 3 guys win over half the races, I beg to differ. Last season they could have just put the winners in the chase for one race and then the top 4 in a second race and call that the chase.
 
Team Penske said:
I think the opinion of most are partly correct. Many said last years racing was very good BUT when 3 guys win over half the races, I beg to differ. Last season they could have just put the winners in the chase for one race and then the top 4 in a second race and call that the chase.
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Having a few guys that are the class of the field week in and week out doesn’t bother me. Of course it never bothered me when the top 5 were on 4 different laps because that was the way things unfolded.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
What was the 'Gridiron Racing Challenge'? Obviously it wasn't a points race, and there isn't a soul in the stands. Under those circumstances, is it possible the drivers were just hamming it up?
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KyBu is a competitor to a fault.
 
IanMcVittie said:
Of course it never bothered me when the top 5 were on 4 different laps because that was the way things unfolded.
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One thing that is different now is that back then there was a better than average chance that a couple of those cars would fail or crash and not make the finish, offering at least SOME drama. Now that the engines almost never blow, and wrecks are as rare as unicorns, those big leads are viewed a little differently. The sportscar guys have had to get used to this too. Before the mid 2000's, it was common to win the Rolex 24 by multiple laps. Now, between the reliability of the cars, the careful balance of performance and the way the races are called, it's now common to have a half dozen cars on the lead lap at the finish. Believe it or not, some of the purists would prefer to go back to the way it was.
 
Formerjackman said:
One thing that is different now is that back then there was a better than average chance that a couple of those cars would fail or crash and not make the finish, offering at least SOME drama. Now that the engines almost never blow, and wrecks are as rare as unicorns, those big leads are viewed a little differently. The sportscar guys have had to get used to this too. Before the mid 2000's, it was common to win the Rolex 24 by multiple laps. Now, between the reliability of the cars, the careful balance of performance and the way the races are called, it's now common to have a half dozen cars on the lead lap at the finish. Believe it or not, some of the purists would prefer to go back to the way it was.
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and some will argue the opposite of every point even when reality of the day shows differently. I don't call them purists though, but out of step with where the racing world is heading and they don't like it. The majority want and demand close racing, IMSA is booming doing what they do, more manufacturers than ever getting involved in the series.
 
Formerjackman said:
One thing that is different now is that back then there was a better than average chance that a couple of those cars would fail or crash and not make the finish, offering at least SOME drama. Now that the engines almost never blow, and wrecks are as rare as unicorns, those big leads are viewed a little differently. The sportscar guys have had to get used to this too. Before the mid 2000's, it was common to win the Rolex 24 by multiple laps. Now, between the reliability of the cars, the careful balance of performance and the way the races are called, it's now common to have a half dozen cars on the lead lap at the finish. Believe it or not, some of the purists would prefer to go back to the way it was.
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When was the last time a cup car even overheated? Way back when it didn’t matter if the leader was on a lap of his own as he could blow up, overheat or get a set of tires with the incorrect stagger. You didn’t leave the track or the room back then.
 
2. Will IndyCar knowledge help Chevy thrive in Cup in ’19?

There are so many questions entering this season with what the racing will be like under the new rules package. Some questions will start to be answered at next week’s organizational test at Las Vegas Motor Speedway, but even then there will be much uncertainty.

For Chevrolet, this could be daunting after its struggles last year. The car manufacturer won four races a year ago — its lowest total since 1982 — and last had a car race for the Cup title in Miami in 2016.

Pat Suhy, Chevrolet’s NASCAR Group Manager, notes how the manufacturer’s IndyCar program could help its NASCAR teams with this rules package that has tapered spacers reducing horsepower and downforce added to the cars.

“We’ve been able to take a lot of what we’ve learned in IndyCar, where you are power limited,” Suhy told NBC Sports. “If you look at last year and really years past, we just piled on as much downforce as we could and you would always go faster, but when you’re power limited with the tapered (spacer) 550 (horsepower) engine, when you’re power limited, you have to start making decisions about how much drag you’re willing to accept for a downforce gain. It’s really more about trading off straightaway speed for cornering speed.

“We’re in a really good position to help answer that question with some of the tools that we have developed and used week in and week out in the IndyCar Series. We’ve been able to bring that to our NASCAR teams.”

https://nascar.nbcsports.com/2019/01/25/friday-5-crew-chief-marvels-at-chase-elliotts-progression/
 
StandOnIt said:
2. Will IndyCar knowledge help Chevy thrive in Cup in ’19?

There are so many questions entering this season with what the racing will be like under the new rules package. Some questions will start to be answered at next week’s organizational test at Las Vegas Motor Speedway, but even then there will be much uncertainty.

For Chevrolet, this could be daunting after its struggles last year. The car manufacturer won four races a year ago — its lowest total since 1982 — and last had a car race for the Cup title in Miami in 2016.

Pat Suhy, Chevrolet’s NASCAR Group Manager, notes how the manufacturer’s IndyCar program could help its NASCAR teams with this rules package that has tapered spacers reducing horsepower and downforce added to the cars.

“We’ve been able to take a lot of what we’ve learned in IndyCar, where you are power limited,” Suhy told NBC Sports. “If you look at last year and really years past, we just piled on as much downforce as we could and you would always go faster, but when you’re power limited with the tapered (spacer) 550 (horsepower) engine, when you’re power limited, you have to start making decisions about how much drag you’re willing to accept for a downforce gain. It’s really more about trading off straightaway speed for cornering speed.

“We’re in a really good position to help answer that question with some of the tools that we have developed and used week in and week out in the IndyCar Series. We’ve been able to bring that to our NASCAR teams.”

https://nascar.nbcsports.com/2019/01/25/friday-5-crew-chief-marvels-at-chase-elliotts-progression/
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I never thought I would live to see the day when one of my cars and one of my trucks put out more HP then the flying decals.
 
StandOnIt said:
2. Will IndyCar knowledge help Chevy thrive in Cup in ’19?

There are so many questions entering this season with what the racing will be like under the new rules package. Some questions will start to be answered at next week’s organizational test at Las Vegas Motor Speedway, but even then there will be much uncertainty.

For Chevrolet, this could be daunting after its struggles last year. The car manufacturer won four races a year ago — its lowest total since 1982 — and last had a car race for the Cup title in Miami in 2016.

Pat Suhy, Chevrolet’s NASCAR Group Manager, notes how the manufacturer’s IndyCar program could help its NASCAR teams with this rules package that has tapered spacers reducing horsepower and downforce added to the cars.

“We’ve been able to take a lot of what we’ve learned in IndyCar, where you are power limited,” Suhy told NBC Sports. “If you look at last year and really years past, we just piled on as much downforce as we could and you would always go faster, but when you’re power limited with the tapered (spacer) 550 (horsepower) engine, when you’re power limited, you have to start making decisions about how much drag you’re willing to accept for a downforce gain. It’s really more about trading off straightaway speed for cornering speed.

“We’re in a really good position to help answer that question with some of the tools that we have developed and used week in and week out in the IndyCar Series. We’ve been able to bring that to our NASCAR teams.”

https://nascar.nbcsports.com/2019/01/25/friday-5-crew-chief-marvels-at-chase-elliotts-progression/
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I was racing at Barrie speedway back in 71 with a 67 chevy power by 343 Cu. In
Racing against us was a very smart operator who was running a 261 chevy 6 cyl. block.
He was no threat going down the straight away but he pulled ahead through the corners running up top with no competition. Finished every season in the top 10.
Maybe this is what we might see this year at short tracks. Best set up wins with the right driver.
 
Team Penske said:
I was racing at Barrie speedway back in 71 with a 67 chevy power by 343 Cu. In
Racing against us was a very smart operator who was running a 261 chevy 6 cyl. block.
He was no threat going down the straight away but he pulled ahead through the corners running up top with no competition. Finished every season in the top 10.
Maybe this is what we might see this year at short tracks. Best set up wins with the right driver.
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going to be keeping an eye on McDriver Chastain, if he is running in the top ten consistently in cup the package is working and driver skill is being more important.
 
StandOnIt said:
going to be keeping an eye on McDriver Chastain, if he is running in the top ten consistently in cup the package is working and driver skill is being more important.
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If you start down that road, don't you wind up with IROC? Isn't it a team sport, with the crew's contribution being important too?

(Not that I have anything against IROC, as long as it's clear that's what's being run.)
 
Charlie Spencer said:
If you start down that road, don't you wind up with IROC? Isn't it a team sport, with the crew's contribution being important too?

(Not that I have anything against IROC, as long as it's clear that's what's being run.)
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I like that better than an engineering race with a cheating CC. :sarcasm:
 
StandOnIt said:
not so simple anymore, can't spend gazillions looking for more down force. Loose is fast.
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I'm not so sure this is true. With the high downforce package, any slight improvement will see larger implications on the track. Since all of the motors are capped at 550hp, there is no reason to spend money there. Since you can't cap aerodynamics, that's where I would spend my money. Or on the road course and short track packages where the hp isn't as limited and aero doesn't play as big of a role.
 
Team Penske said:
I was racing at Barrie speedway back in 71 with a 67 chevy power by 343 Cu. In
Racing against us was a very smart operator who was running a 261 chevy 6 cyl. block.
He was no threat going down the straight away but he pulled ahead through the corners running up top with no competition. Finished every season in the top 10.
Maybe this is what we might see this year at short tracks. Best set up wins with the right driver.
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I wish I could go back to those days and shop for my project car.
What was your annual race budget? :lurk:
 
The car owner owned a wrecking yard so out limit was what ever we could take off those cars.
Blueprint the engine and it was good for a whole season. I always watched for big Lincolns
so I could grab the front coil springs for right side front. :D
 
Charlie Spencer said:
If you start down that road, don't you wind up with IROC? Isn't it a team sport, with the crew's contribution being important too?

(Not that I have anything against IROC, as long as it's clear that's what's being run.)
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I'll never get the IROC story. In IROC all of the cars are built in the same shop, the setups are all identical, motors all the same as are the bodies. Is there anything there that is what they are doing today?
 
LouieLouie said:
I'm not so sure this is true. With the high downforce package, any slight improvement will see larger implications on the track. Since all of the motors are capped at 550hp, there is no reason to spend money there. Since you can't cap aerodynamics, that's where I would spend my money. Or on the road course and short track packages where the hp isn't as limited and aero doesn't play as big of a role.
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I kinda agree. 550 HP is not capped though. What Nascar probably did was install their tapered spacer on an engine, by them or an independent testing lab, measured it on a dyno and that is a figure they came up with at a certain RPM. Send that engine out to any of the big teams for a couple of days I would guarantee it wouldn't come back at 550 HP. I agree on the aero thing, but downforce is only one variable. Without tons of HP, just piling on all the downforce they can find isn't going to necessarily make the car go faster. It becomes a question of how much or little drag which part of that is downforce is needed to go the fastest. Less downforce can be faster, but the car handling, faster down the straights with less downforce in the corners could be the fastest way to go but the hardest car to drive. Those air ducts on the front are going to screw up a whole bunch of slippery advantage teams have gained by messaging the body in the wind tunnels. I'm sure the cream will rise to the top, but it is going to be interesting for awhile.
 
LouieLouie said:
I'm not so sure this is true. With the high downforce package, any slight improvement will see larger implications on the track. Since all of the motors are capped at 550hp, there is no reason to spend money there. Since you can't cap aerodynamics, that's where I would spend my money. Or on the road course and short track packages where the hp isn't as limited and aero doesn't play as big of a role.
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While it is complicated, yes, the history I've witnessed in various racing series is not that vastly increasing downforce levels accomplishes the goal of "taking the aero out" of the equation.

That said, I don't think it is accurate to say engines have been capped at a set HP level. Airflow is being restricted with target HP levels in mind. Advancements are still possible.
 
To think in 13-14 some of the engines were absolutely insane power wise. @StandOnIt was it true HMS engines were damn near putting out 900+ hp at one point back in 2014?
 
Kiante said:
To think in 13-14 some of the engines were absolutely insane power wise. @StandOnIt was it true HMS engines were damn near putting out 900+ hp at one point back in 2014?
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I don't know about that one, I heard something like 950 but who knows. Years ago Nascar pulled a surprise dyno of the trucks. Toyota had pulled over 50 more horsepower out of the second closest motor and that was a long time ago. Last year all of the top teams in the trucks were building their own engines and their 358 cubic inch engines (spending big money) were out running the 396 cubic inch spec motor until Nascar turned up the 396 to make it out of reach. Now they can map the torque and the horsepower, 550 is only a figure, sure, you can only get so much HP from the tapered spacer, but they will get all of it they can.
 
Mike Skinner said on his radio show that the top or outside of the cars have been almost maxed out. The real area of the cars that teams are working on is underneath the cars Which the fans never see.. He even said teams use to leave the shifter boot loose for qualifying to make speed.
Doug Yates also said in a interview that Nascar wants all the engines to be within 10 HP of each other. That is why they Dyne the engines and make the teams even. And before someone says what an advantage Toyota had. I believe that was Nascar helping them out because Toyota was getting their ass kicked when they first came into Nascar. And I bet some high level Japanese people called . Daytona and said you don't want our money to leave, right?
And Nascar Cup racing is very close to IROC. Ray Evernham said that when he started with Dodge, he submitted a car to Nascar for approval. Bill France Jr. said there is no way that car is running. France told Ray he had to.run what he had. Ray said those are the Taurus I bought from Bill Elliott. France said that is right put the Dodge stickers on and run it. And if anyone doesn't believe me just watch Ray's Glory Road show.
 
I wonder how come SHR had to tear off the whole front end and rebuild them including the steering to fit a Ford engine in their cars when they switched from Chevy. That doesn't sound very IROC to me. :idunno:
 
StandOnIt said:
I wonder how come SHR had to tear off the whole front end and rebuild them including the steering to fit a Ford engine in their cars when they switched from Chevy. That doesn't sound very IROC to me. :idunno:
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Richard had to do the same thing when he switched to Ford. The oil pan won't sit down in
regular front clip so they had to use the Ford clips designed for that engine.
 
They need to harness all the energy used for cheating and it give it one race a year.

Innovator Trophy Unlimited 400

Each team lists their cheating formula — only to be revealed after the race.
 
StandOnIt said:
I'll never get the IROC story. In IROC all of the cars are built in the same shop, the setups are all identical, motors all the same as are the bodies. Is there anything there that is what they are doing today?
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I didn't make my point very well. Let me try again.
StandOnIt said:
going to be keeping an eye on McDriver Chastain, if he is running in the top ten consistently in cup the package is working and driver skill is being more important.
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Emphasizing driver skill over car set-up was the goal in IROC. Is that the goal of the new package?
 
Ventisca said:
They need to harness all the energy used for cheating and it give it one race a year.

Innovator Trophy Unlimited 400

Each team lists their cheating formula — only to be revealed after the race.
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Teams wouldn't reveal everything. Gotta keep some stuff up your sleeve for next year's Innovator 400. ;)
 
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