NASCAR’s personality problem

[Charlie Spencer]

but an appreciation/passion for cars.

Nope, I don't have that either. To me, they're transportation.

 

[AndyMarquisLive]

Saw this video along with the Slapshoes video about "NASCAR's legitimacy problem". The two things are inter-related but also semi-exclusive in terms of causes.

I saw that too, but I think he was grasping at straws a little bit.

The NFL has a very serious credibility problem right now. Every single week, the games are being overshadowed by the officiating and accusations of rigged games. That all just got amplified in a big way last night because of Patrick Mahomes and Andy Reid's displeasure with a (correct) holding call that erased what would've otherwise been an all-time great play by Taylor Swift's boyfriend.

Speedbowl is absolutely correct: consider for a moment who are the chart topping pop artists of the present day and then go try to find their songs being earworms almost anywhere outside the confines of social media. I know Billie Ellish exists, but hell if I can name a single one of her songs.

But you know who Billie Eilish is. You might not listen to her music, but you know who she is.

There's only one active NASCAR driver people who don't follow the sport can name – and it's not Chase Elliott.

 

[StandOnIt]

Nope, I don't have that either. To me, they're transportation.

Eh, the cars are a minority part of it, but they don't have any T-shirt trailers. The fans that are there at the trailers buy shirts with their driver's name on them. The stands are full of them.

 

[Formerjackman]

The only reason that damn track existed was because of greed. You’re the only person who treats like ****** Rockingham or North Wilkesboro.

It didn’t put on good racing until the asphalt wore in.

Agree 100% on this. Auto Club was snooze city until the last few years when the asphalt got so worn. Ironically enough, the most exciting Cup race I ever saw at sister track MIS was right after a repave in 1986. Go figure.....

 

[virtualbalboa]

I saw that too, but I think he was grasping at straws a little bit.

The NFL has a very serious credibility problem right now. Every single week, the games are being overshadowed by the officiating and accusations of rigged games. That all just got amplified in a big way last night because of Patrick Mahomes and Andy Reid's displeasure with a (correct) holding call that erased what would've otherwise been an all-time great play by Taylor Swift's boyfriend.

I think Slapshoes is basically bang on but also recognize that it is a video made for people who think what I think. I have plenty of issues with the NFL too - many of the reasons I don't watch are mirror image/opposite world versions of what I often hear ascribed as to why other people quit watching, but they exist and I'd cop to them. However, I can't possibly believe the NFL is equivalent to NASCAR in terms of how those two organizations are run. I mean, it is functionally impossible for me to believe that. The NFL Commissioner is appointed by the teams; NASCAR is a dictatorship based on the linearity of who Bill France Jr. didn't pull out of. Chase Elliott being in the playoffs this year would be like the NFL adding a play-in game for Jets because Aaron Rogers got hurt.

But you know who Billie Eilish is. You might not listen to her music, but you know who she is.

There's only one active NASCAR driver people who don't follow the sport can name – and it's not Chase Elliott.

I barely know who Billie Ellish is and she is a substantial, major star. I have listened to pop music in this century! I am not that old and unhip as to be totally unaware as to what is happening, but that awareness comes with the caveat that I know that artists are making money in very, very different ways than they used to and previously existing metrics of success are no longer relevant.

I don't think there is a single full time participant in NASCAR that would come out of 50% of the mouths of the American public if they were asked to name an active driver. JJ is being discussed as being among the biggest stars and he was in Indycar for two seasons and barely moved the needle.

 

[FLRacingFan]

A lot of these guys just don’t have it in them to use their personalities for stardom. Starting in their youth, these guys get PR training on what sort of image to present to the public. They spend so much time focusing on the racing development ladder growing up they barely have time to develop a personality elsewhere. A lot of them likely have their social media accounts curated for them. Sponsorship is at such a premium these days I don’t think you’re going to see that change anytime soon. And that is why you see some more interesting characters at the Xfinity/Truck level usually. The money at stake just isn’t the same and there are more varying paths to how they got there, and Cup isn’t the end goal for a lot of them.

 

[AndyMarquisLive]

I know a smidge about pro wrestling and will make this comparison: in 1992, Vince McMahon and the WWF were embroiled in scandal around the sale of steroids and a felony trial in which Vince managed to duck a federal conviction. In response to this, the WWF made it a focus to double down on kids by presenting a very safe-for-families and cartoony product. The people who recall this fondly are all people who were children at the time, and the nature of what got them into wrestling has had some significant knock on effects in terms of what they would come to expect from the fake fighting folks in the subsequent years since. WWE, as it is known now:

-just merged with the UFC (which is sorta like the WWE, except *real* and immediately exposes the nature of pro wrestling's worked state by existing) to form TKO,
-Vince was sent packing with a forced buyout to the tune of 10 figures,
-got a great TV rights package
-as well as substantial international investment from Saudi Arabia (which they now consider "home" even though much of their roster can't drive a car legally there)

WWE attendance and TV ratings are now trending upwards after, and stop me if you've heard this before, roughly 20 consecutive years of declining fortunes. They still reach a substantially smaller audience than pro wrestling as a whole did In America in the 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, or any other year through 2001, but the audience is more greatly and internationally dispersed and the nature of the business has become more about media distribution rights than ticket sales (for which they are cutting back live events to save on costs). Lots of people who loved pro wrestling at some point have stopped watching because it doesn't appeal to them anymore and is more in line with the cartoony WWF stuff of the early 90s than traditional southern wrestling of the 80s or puroresu from the mid 90s or lucha libre from literally ever. Or even territory era WWF with it's reliance on strong face champions. They're all left out in the cold. Is the WWE really building an audience or managing a decline? NASCAR isn't much different.

I rarely watch WWE or AEW, but it all comes back to starpower. I've actually watched some of these before BECAUSE of the star power.

John Cena and Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson are household names. Ronda Rousey was a household name before she went to the WWE. I know who Becky Lynch is. I know who CM Punk is.

Even in its decline, WWE had stars who were household names. The Rock has been in countless movies and TV shows. John Cena has become an accomplished actor - and an underrated one at that (he's VERY good in Peacemaker).

NASCAR's decline is much more significant because it does not have that kind of starpower anymore.

Bubba Wallace is probably the only driver people who don't watch NASCAR can name - and that's because of politics. Dude lives rent free in so many heads.

There's a reason so many people WANT Hailie Deegan to succeed. Between her social media following, her natural charisma, and her appearance, she has all the ingredients to become a household name. She came into the sport with the promise of having all that and the talent to become the one to shatter the sport's glass ceiling. Unfortunately, her results on the track, so far, have been worse than awful.

To complicate matters for NASCAR, there's the entire Chase Elliott conundrum. The dude just doesn't have the charisma to become a star. But the overwhelming majority of NASCAR fans are Chase Elliott fans.

Ross Chastain is the most exciting thing in NASCAR. Unfortunately, he's been neutered by Rick Hendrick and NASCAR. And then we have Jeff Gordon making the rounds talking about how Denny Hamlin is too controversial and we don't need that...

 

[Formerjackman]

I think there are plenty of likeable guys in NASCAR. Obviosuly, personality is a different subject. I don't think lack of personality is what is hurting NASCAR though. There is star power in the sport.

NASCAR can't force people to like the sport, no matter how hard they try to bring new people. They should focus their energy on the fans that have been watching for decades, there's still a loyal fanbase around.

One of the points that I think gets completely glossed over is that a major contributing factor in not having much of a new generation of fans is that NASCAR basically ran off the older generation that would have brought that next generation along. Kids grow up watching what their parents watch. When the parents stop watching, the kids do too. Another issue is that we have basically reached a level of relative parity in the sport where NOBODY really stands out performance wise, let alone anything else. Would Jeff Gordon have totally transformed the sport in the 90's if he were putting out Chase Elliott/Ryan Blaney numbers?

 

[The Nature Boy]

I saw that too, but I think he was grasping at straws a little bit.

I think he made some good points but Slap has a tendency to lean heavily on his "Playoffs bad" opinion and he used that to underline his thesis that NASCAR's "dam of credibility" had burst. I also think he made that point by painting a rosy picture of officiating in other sports. Every sport has officiating issues and concerns over their postseason format.

As a Mark Martin fan, I'm surprised you didn't turn it off when he said that before 2004, drivers cared more about championships than fans.

 

[AndyMarquisLive]

I barely know who Billie Ellish is and she is a substantial, major star. I have listened to pop music in this century! I am not that old and unhip as to be totally unaware as to what is happening, but that awareness comes with the caveat that I know that artists are making money in very, very different ways than they used to and previously existing metrics of success are no longer relevant.

I hate to sound like a "boomer," but contemporary (pop) music genuinely sucks now. That's not even nostalgia talking or anything like that. It's just very bad. Lo-fi, slow, depressing. The Lana Del Rey influence.

A very large portion of today's "rock" music (which is VERY much on its deathbed) doesn't have a single guitar in it.

I don't know how Taylor Swift and Miley Cyrus don't have severe spinal problems these days, because those two have been carrying the entire music industry on their backs.

 

[virtualbalboa]

I rarely watch WWE or AEW, but it all comes back to starpower. I've actually watched some of these before BECAUSE of the star power.

John Cena and Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson are household names. Ronda Rousey was a household name before she went to the WWE. I know who Becky Lynch is. I know who CM Punk is.

Even in its decline, WWE had stars who were household names. The Rock has been in countless movies and TV shows. John Cena has become an accomplished actor - and an underrated one at that (he's VERY good in Peacemaker).

So to this end:

-John Cena is essentially retired
-The Rock got a tribute show to him that the WWE ran a couple years ago and he didn't even do a pretape for it: he's reappeared once since because Endeavor is gonna Endeavor but he is otherwise also retired
-CM Punk was with the other guys and it, uhhh, didn't go great. I know he returned to WWE and he's increased ratings and such, but he's not much of a household name and his big moment outside of pro wrestling was getting his s#it pushed in twice in UFC cages against a prospect and then a sportswriter who trained sometimes.

The biggest current stars for WWE are still the oldest names: Steve Austin just headlined Wrestlemania last year. The current slate of younger stars isn't known or worse. They sold a lot of Bray Wyatt merch (he was their most profitable guy through the early part of 2023) and unfortunately he died this year because of COVID complications.

NASCAR's decline is much more significant because it does not have that kind of starpower anymore.

Agreed, but not all caps.

Bubba Wallace is probably the only driver people who don't watch NASCAR can name - and that's because of politics. Dude lives rent free in so many heads.

AGREED AND ALL CAPS

There's a reason so many people WANT Hailie Deegan to succeed. Between her social media following, her natural charisma, and her appearance, she has all the ingredients to become a household name. She came into the sport with the promise of having all that and the talent to become the one to shatter the sport's glass ceiling. Unfortunately, her results on the track, so far, have been worse than awful.

To complicate matters for NASCAR, there's the entire Chase Elliott conundrum. The dude just doesn't have the charisma to become a star. But the overwhelming majority of NASCAR fans are Chase Elliott fans.

You and I both know his dad won most popular driver a bajillionty times while it was clearly obvious that Earnhardt, Waltrip, and Gordon had larger fanbases. There just aren't those polarizing guys except for Bubba, and unfortunately Bubba isn't good enough to win championships. Well, let me correct that: no one is really good enough to consistently win championships because consistently winning championships is something NASCAR has gamed it's system to not produce. Though Wallace doesn't seem to have the Kyle Busch-sorta level of god given talent to actually dominate a non-playoff based title.

Ross Chastain is the most exciting thing in NASCAR. Unfortunately, he's been neutered by Rick Hendrick and NASCAR. And then we have Jeff Gordon making the rounds talking about how Denny Hamlin is too controversial and we don't need that...

There's a lot I'd like to see be different, but at the end of the day, NASCAR is at least in position to be sustainable for many years into the future as long as they don't do anything really, really stupid.

 

[Formerjackman]

I rarely watch WWE or AEW, but it all comes back to starpower. I've actually watched some of these before BECAUSE of the star power.

John Cena and Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson are household names. Ronda Rousey was a household name before she went to the WWE. I know who Becky Lynch is. I know who CM Punk is.

Even in its decline, WWE had stars who were household names. The Rock has been in countless movies and TV shows. John Cena has become an accomplished actor - and an underrated one at that (he's VERY good in Peacemaker).

NASCAR's decline is much more significant because it does not have that kind of starpower anymore.

Bubba Wallace is probably the only driver people who don't watch NASCAR can name - and that's because of politics. Dude lives rent free in so many heads.

There's a reason so many people WANT Hailie Deegan to succeed. Between her social media following, her natural charisma, and her appearance, she has all the ingredients to become a household name. She came into the sport with the promise of having all that and the talent to become the one to shatter the sport's glass ceiling. Unfortunately, her results on the track, so far, have been worse than awful.

To complicate matters for NASCAR, there's the entire Chase Elliott conundrum. The dude just doesn't have the charisma to become a star. But the overwhelming majority of NASCAR fans are Chase Elliott fans.

Ross Chastain is the most exciting thing in NASCAR. Unfortunately, he's been neutered by Rick Hendrick and NASCAR. And then we have Jeff Gordon making the rounds talking about how Denny Hamlin is too controversial and we don't need that...

Tony Stewart was as an original type of personality as NASCAR has EVER seen, with the performance to back it up, and even HE couldn't really dent NASCAR';s decline. Yes, he was a star, but he NEVER had Earnhardt/Gordon popularity or cultural significance. I think Chase's popularity says a lot more about the state of NASCAR than it does him or even his fans. Bubba is Bubba's own worst enemy. His sometimes erratic behavior and his sad sack state of mental health makes him a far less sympathetic story than he should be. Driving for the least liked car brand and for one of the least liked drivers doesn't help either.

 

[virtualbalboa]

I hate to sound like a "boomer," but contemporary (pop) music genuinely sucks now. That's not even nostalgia talking or anything like that. It's just very bad. Lo-fi, slow, depressing. The Lana Del Rey influence.

A very large portion of today's "rock" music (which is VERY much on its deathbed) doesn't have a single guitar in it.

I don't know how Taylor Swift and Miley Cyrus don't have severe spinal problems these days, because those two have been carrying the entire music industry on their backs.

Earlier this year, I was informed that Ghost was touring amphitheaters. I have seen Ghost twice, both in the Beforetimes, at increasingly large venues (the Majestic Theater in Detroit, then the Fisher Theater across and down the street to twice that audience). Ghost, best I can tell, is not in regular active rock rotation and their songs are not played at sporting events or anything like that, but this is an astonishing level of success for what started as a side project of a death metal band and something for which the entire presentation is openly satanic.

Things are very different: You sell vinyl to collectors and your primary revenue generation comes from merchandise sales, for which venues are increasingly trying to dip their hand into the pot of. Selling a million records now is like selling 15 million records before. Artists do distribution deals with retail outlets (Dolly with Cracker Barrel, Garth Brooks with Bass Pro Shop) for record releases and don't even do traditional distribution anymore. The radio basically doesn't matter and in some cases is trapped playing the same music it has for 20-30-40 years.

 

[virtualbalboa]

A lot of these guys just don’t have it in them to use their personalities for stardom. Starting in their youth, these guys get PR training on what sort of image to present to the public. They spend so much time focusing on the racing development ladder growing up they barely have time to develop a personality elsewhere. A lot of them likely have their social media accounts curated for them. Sponsorship is at such a premium these days I don’t think you’re going to see that change anytime soon. And that is why you see some more interesting characters at the Xfinity/Truck level usually. The money at stake just isn’t the same and there are more varying paths to how they got there, and Cup isn’t the end goal for a lot of them.

There is a potential future that exists in which there is NASCAR and its national touring series, there is RTA with pavement late models that either participants own the series of or RTA owns the distribution for, and that pairing constitutes basically all of pavement oval racing in America. Think CARS being roughly equivalent to an F3/F4 regional series and the next step up for kids who are currently in Legends cars. Is that good? Probably not IMO but it could be sustainable for a long, long time so long as NASCAR can retain a sufficient fanbase to keep getting rights deals.

 

[The Nature Boy]

Well, let me correct that: no one is really good enough to consistently win championships because consistently winning championships is something NASCAR has gamed it's system to not produce.

I actually disagree here. I feel like repeat champions are more likely when everything is decided at the same track every single year. If you're good at Phoenix, you already have a leg up. Further, the current playoff system is the best system we've ever had at rewarding regular season performance. Contrary to what Slap says (and I think this shows a deficiency in his analysis), dominating the regular season gives you a ton of mulligans in the playoffs. You basically need to **** the bed like MTJ this year or Harvick in 2020 to NOT make the Championship 4. MTJ kept advancing in the playoffs this year despite subpar results because of the playoff point cushion he built. If you can accumulate playoff points throughout the regular season and are good at Phoenix, you have a good shot at being champion.

I would argue that the relative lack of repeat champions is due to the insane parity in the field now. You have more guys who could be champions on a year to year basis than we've ever actually had in the sport.

 

[AndyMarquisLive]

One of the points that I think gets completely glossed over is that a major contributing factor in not having much of a new generation of fans is that NASCAR basically ran off the older generation that would have brought that next generation along.

That doesn't explain millennials not watching anymore though.

When I was in high school, and not in the Confederate States of America, NASCAR was THE thing. Almost everyone where Dale Jr or Kevin Harvick coats at school.

I think Chase's popularity says a lot more about the state of NASCAR than it does him or even his fans.

It says more about the fanbase and the media than you think.

Reporter after reporter trashed the 2017 Daytona 500 in columns and on Twitter for the sole fact that Chase Elliott ran out of gas. If he had won that race, it would've been "the greatest Daytona 500" since Dale won. We've had commentators on network broadcasts lobby NASCAR on the air to manipulate the outcome of a race for Chase Elliott to make up for Rainbowghazi.

Bubba is Bubba's own worst enemy. His sometimes erratic behavior and his sad sack state of mental health makes him a far less sympathetic story than he should be.

Agree with this, but I also don't think people realize the immense pressure Bubba deals with. It's hard to tune it out. Because of something he had nothing to do with, he became public enemy no. 1 for the conservative media machine. The President of the United States, at the time, literally woke up one morning, got on his golden ****ter, pulled up Twitter, and ****mouthed the man because he felt like it. The most-watched cable network in America trashes him, out of the blue, at least once a month. And that's not even touching social media.

I'm sure the dude would like to go out and race like the other 35 drivers and not have to deal with this crap.

Kyle Larson doesn't have to answer for HIS OWN ACTIONS every single week. And Noah Gragson is in line for a promotion after that little kerfuffle. Kyle Larson and Noah Gragson don't wake up to tweets from President Biden ****mouthing them and blaming them for the decline of America. They don't see segments about them on MSNBC and how they've single-handedly killed sports and entertainment in America. They don't have very influential professional instigators trying to unleash mobs on them.

 

[AndyMarquisLive]

A lot of these guys just don’t have it in them to use their personalities for stardom. Starting in their youth, these guys get PR training on what sort of image to present to the public. They spend so much time focusing on the racing development ladder growing up they barely have time to develop a personality elsewhere.

I've argued with many parents and PR reps in my life about how we want to see personality, not see someone read off of a written script.

I've probably written the exact same story, almost word for word, dozens of times. The ones who are going to make it, the ones who come from money, and are laser-focused on just racing, their backstory is literally the exact same as the one next to them. It's BORING!

 

[virtualbalboa]

I actually disagree here. I feel like repeat champions are more likely when everything is decided at the same track every single year. If you're good at Phoenix, you already have a leg up. Further, the current playoff system is the best system we've ever had at rewarding regular season performance. Contrary to what Slap says (and I think this shows a deficiency in his analysis), dominating the regular season gives you a ton of mulligans in the playoffs. You basically need to **** the bed like MTJ this year or Harvick in 2020 to NOT make the Championship 4. MTJ kept advancing in the playoffs this year despite subpar results because of the playoff point cushion he built. If you can accumulate playoff points throughout the regular season and are good at Phoenix, you have a good shot at being champion.

I would argue that the relative lack of repeat champions is due to the insane parity in the field now. You have more guys who could be champions on a year to year basis than we've ever actually had in the sport.

I don't feel like this is the right place for this discussion and I'm not really into having argument 3,984,269 about whether or not the Chase is good/rewards people the right way/whatever. Frankly, I have my opinion on it, I've voiced it before, some people agree and others disagree, but fundamentally none of it is going to change how I feel about it or what I think the data which exists (and is affected by the nature of the rules) says. I'm not even remotely convinced that playoff points matter beyond winning to make the final 16 in the first place and would need extensive, extensive review of data to have my mind flipped on that.

In any case, Bubba isn't realistically racing for championships. Wins here and there, sure. He's more Bobby Hamilton than Bobby Allison. Wish it was different, but alas.

 

[AndyMarquisLive]

I actually disagree here. I feel like repeat champions are more likely when everything is decided at the same track every single year. If you're good at Phoenix, you already have a leg up. Further, the current playoff system is the best system we've ever had at rewarding regular season performance. Contrary to what Slap says (and I think this shows a deficiency in his analysis), dominating the regular season gives you a ton of mulligans in the playoffs. You basically need to **** the bed like MTJ this year or Harvick in 2020 to NOT make the Championship 4. MTJ kept advancing in the playoffs this year despite subpar results because of the playoff point cushion he built. If you can accumulate playoff points throughout the regular season and are good at Phoenix, you have a good shot at being champion.

I would argue that the relative lack of repeat champions is due to the insane parity in the field now. You have more guys who could be champions on a year to year basis than we've ever actually had in the sport.

I don't think the current system rewards consistency as well as the Winston Cup system. Ryan Blaney winning the championship is evidence of that.

Also, Phoenix being the finale is a problem. Literally nobody, except west coast fans, want it there. Dale Jr just explained on his podcast last week why the finale should go back to Homestead. The drivers, the majority of the fans, the teams, almost everyone wants the finale to go back to Homestead.

Although my greatest fear is that it will end up being in Daytona before long.

 

[Formerjackman]

I disagree.

There was just a huge media and social media frenzy over Shohei Ohtani, and baseball's supposedly on some kind of death bed.

I don't watch NBA Basketball at all, and I know who Lebron James, Steph Curry, Zion Williamson and Kevin Durant are.

Social media can create household names, or turn movies into blockbusters. The Sharknado movies became pop culture sensations because of social media. I saw "Everything Everywhere All At Once" (best movie in decades) because of the social media buzz. Taylor Tomlinson, who is taking over one of CBS' late night shows, became a sensation because of TikTok. TikTok stars are landing roles in movies and shows, and selling out concerts because they became overnight sensations.

A media frenzy is not the same thing as fan interest though. The media has a vested interest in making everything that happens seem unprecedented and special. The same thing goes for social media. If I read one more damn Yahoo headline that start's with "Twitter blows up over ..........." I will literally punch my screen. Someone says or does something mildly provocative and 50 people on some social media react. So what? Who cares? Likely 99.95% of the population does not either.

 

[virtualbalboa]

I've argued with many parents and PR reps in my life about how we want to see personality, not see someone read off of a written script.

I've probably written the exact same story, almost word for word, dozens of times. The ones who are going to make it, the ones who come from money, and are laser-focused on just racing, their backstory is literally the exact same as the one next to them. It's BORING!

Right - this has effected everything at the grass roots level too. Just look at the NASCAR Modified Tour schedule in 1998 and look at it now 25 years later. Winston West and Busch North are both well and truly dead regardless of what anyone is gonna say about ARCA West/East/National.

 

[Formerjackman]

Again, the personality of this sport needs to be an appreciation for the technology/cars, and the talents of the drivers who can drive them inch perfect. Let's bring RaceView back so fans can see what drivers are doing. Let's get the OEMs pushing their products through the drivers. I have said this before, and I will say it again....If you talk about the sport's most popular driver without talking about what he drives, you are asking the average sports fan to compare him to other athletes like Lebron James. Chase Elliott is nothing in terms of athletic ability compare to Lebron....but if you put both of them in cars going 180 mph, Lebron has no shot. This is the sport's personality IMO.

It's hard to make the case for the cars being the stars when they all have the same chassis, the same aero numbers, and vary almost none in horsepower. Even in IMSA, the parity is so insane that nobody is allowed to build a better mousetrap. All of our needling aside, using the current NASCAR model, how can anyone REALLY make the case their car is superior with a straight face?

 

[AndyMarquisLive]

Right - this has effected everything at the grass roots level too. Just look at the NASCAR Modified Tour schedule in 1998 and look at it now 25 years later. Winston West and Busch North are both well and truly dead regardless of what anyone is gonna say about ARCA West/East/National.

What's happening to ARCA East isn't a surprise. Handwriting's been on the wall.

Late Model Stocks and Bowman Gray are king around here. If you're a grassroots racing fan, you're watching the CARS Tour, Hickory, Florence, and the LMSC Majors and, outside of LMSC racing, you're watching Bowman Gray and the SMART Modified Tour.

Not even the Super Late Model Tours and dirt series can make anything work around here. All the 410 Sprint Cars that tour the country have completely abandoned this region.

 

[The Nature Boy]

Kyle Larson and Noah Gragson don't wake up to tweets from President Biden ****mouthing them and blaming them for the decline of America.

And I may catch heat for this but it's also a bad look for the sport. One of the most popular drivers in the sport was caught on tape saying a racial slur and his only "punishment" was a token suspension and then he ends up in one of the best rides in the sport? Or Gragson ends up in championship equipment after liking a meme that made light of a major flashpoint in the fight against police brutality? It's not the best look for NASCAR and reaffirms the negative stereotypes that people often have about the sport.

That doesn't explain millennials not watching anymore though.

When I was in high school, and not in the Confederate States of America, NASCAR was THE thing. Almost everyone where Dale Jr or Kevin Harvick coats at school.

NASCAR was huge when millennials were in high school but ultimately it ended up being a fad. NASCAR thought the fad would last and made projections based on that. NASCAR also made some boneheaded decisions at their peak that people forget about because they just yell "PLAYOFFS BAD!" as an excuse for everything.

At its peak, NASCAR got rid of the Southern 500, gave second races to some of the most boring tracks on the circuit (Texas, Fontana), and introduced the COT (which produced ****** racing in its first couple of years).

Better decision making would have resulted in more sustained popularity. NASCAR didn't realize that people liked the sport as it was. Taking away popular tracks in favor of duds wasn't going to retain people and introducing a car that raced like a brick was the nail in the coffin. The issue isn't that NASCAR chased away its old fans, it's that it did little to keep the younger fanbase they had in the early-mid 2000s.

I don't think the current system rewards consistency as well as the Winston Cup system. Ryan Blaney winning the championship is evidence of that.

Also, Phoenix being the finale is a problem. Literally nobody, except west coast fans, want it there. Dale Jr just explained on his podcast last week why the finale should go back to Homestead. The drivers, the majority of the fans, the teams, almost everyone wants the finale to go back to Homestead.

Although my greatest fear is that it will end up being in Daytona before long.

We need to get rid of the overemphasis on winning AND the winner take all finale. The biggest flaw in the system (and luckily no one has exploited it to this level yet) is that you can be dog **** for the entire season but if you just win a race in every round, you can overcome your playoff point deficit. My ideal playoff system would be a hybrid of the original Chase and what we have now. I love the idea of playoff points as rewarding performance throughout the year. NASCAR should just take the top 10 in points, give them their playoff points from throughout the year, and them race for the final 10 races. The original flaw from the 2004 Chase is that a guy could have a massive lead and it would get erased by the points reset. With playoff points, that is less of an issue. If a guy has a big lead, then his playoff points should still given him have a decent advantage.

If NASCAR insists on retaining the current system, the final round has to be 3 races. This corrects a flaw that baseball ran into with the single game wild card (and what we see in March Madness from time to time). A single sporting event has too many wild card (no pun intended) variables that can derail a team's performance.

I'm not against a playoff system. I prefer a full season format, but I can understand the value of a playoff from a fan interaction perspective. It keeps fanbases engaged later in the year, which is good for any sport.

But I don't think anyone is tuning out because of the playoff format. In fact, I don't think the casual fan cares all that much about the nuts and bolts of how a champion is decided. If NASCAR had relatable personalities and the product was engaging, people would still watch. People still watch the NFL and they've engaged in ******* in their playoff system in order to maximize the number of teams participating. Anyone barking up the "playoffs are turning people off" tree is chasing a red herring. The sport has deeper problems.

 

[virtualbalboa]

And I may catch heat for this but it's also a bad look for the sport. One of the most popular drivers in the sport was caught on tape saying a racial slur and his only "punishment" was a token suspension and then he ends up in one of the best rides in the sport? Or Gragson ends up in championship equipment after liking a meme that made light of a major flashpoint in the fight against police brutality? It's not the best look for NASCAR and reaffirms the negative stereotypes that people often have about the sport.

I never forget that "the most popular driver" in the series made a campaign appearance with the then-CEO for NASCAR and stash that in the same category.

But I don't think anyone is tuning out because of the playoff format. In fact, I don't think the casual fan cares all that much about the nuts and bolts of how a champion is decided.

I could speak for myself here but that's anecdotal compared to a population sized sample that I think you're alluding to. Regardless, I do think casual fans care a lot about that. I will point at "College Football since 1900" as a relevant counterpoint.

 

[StandOnIt]

What's happening to ARCA East isn't a surprise. Handwriting's been on the wall.

Late Model Stocks and Bowman Gray are king around here. If you're a grassroots racing fan, you're watching the CARS Tour, Hickory, Florence, and the LMSC Majors and, outside of LMSC racing, you're watching Bowman Gray and the SMART Modified Tour.

Not even the Super Late Model Tours and dirt series can make anything work around here. All the 410 Sprint Cars that tour the country have completely abandoned this region.

The CARS tour if you can call it that goes to like 3 states on the east coast lol. I'm sure it's big in your area, but the rest of the country it's WoO, and USAC for the most part and now High Limit also..that is called expanding.

 

[virtualbalboa]

What's happening to ARCA East isn't a surprise. Handwriting's been on the wall.

Late Model Stocks and Bowman Gray are king around here. If you're a grassroots racing fan, you're watching the CARS Tour, Hickory, Florence, and the LMSC Majors and, outside of LMSC racing, you're watching Bowman Gray and the SMART Modified Tour.

Not even the Super Late Model Tours and dirt series can make anything work around here. All the 410 Sprint Cars that tour the country have completely abandoned this region.

Grassroots fans can watch a lot of different stuff. Looking at purse money, it seems clear to me that what the majority of grassroots motorsports fans in America are watching is dirt racing even if that doesn't have the cache in some parts of the Carolinas or around Mooresville.

 

[AndyMarquisLive]

And I may catch heat for this but it's also a bad look for the sport. One of the most popular drivers in the sport was caught on tape saying a racial slur and his only "punishment" was a token suspension and then he ends up in one of the best rides in the sport? Or Gragson ends up in championship equipment after liking a meme that made light of a major flashpoint in the fight against police brutality? It's not the best look for NASCAR and reaffirms the negative stereotypes that people often have about the sport.

Lets not forget the radio incident at North Wilkesboro, and the fans being more PO'd that Bubba wasn't banned for life over jokingly flipping someone off. Which, by the way, racers who actually do that all the time were calling for Bubba to be banned.

When I bring up how Fox News talks about Bubba once a month (at least), it's honestly just another thing in the mountain of reasons NASCAR and the NFL should both leave Fox. You have people like Jesse Watters on Fox News telling millions of viewers to boycott NASCAR and the NFL, and BOTH properties are on Fox Sports. NASCAR's "core fanbase" is right in Fox News Channel's target demographic, and that network tells those people not to watch because the sport's gone "woke."

MSNBC is a more serious network, so they're not going to rant about the dumb things Fox News does. But even if they did, NBC knows it's not in the best interest of the network's bottom line to have Joe Scarborough and Joy Reid telling viewers to boycott NASCAR on NBC.

 

[AndyMarquisLive]

Grassroots fans can watch a lot of different stuff. Looking at purse money, it seems clear to me that what the majority of grassroots motorsports fans in America are watching is dirt racing even if that doesn't have the cache in some parts of the Carolinas or around Mooresville.

Outside of the Carolinas, dirt is king.

But around here, CARS Tour is king.

 

[Greg]

In my view,I think this thread is a much to do about nothing. As a kid I was always drawn to racing for the speed aspect of it, the cup cars of the late 80’s and early 90’s were knarly beasts, that were tamed by hero’s who were larger than life. The drivers supreme driving talent were what made them hero’s, everything else just kind of followed. I never cared much for “driver personality”, the racing aspect hooked me. A lot of the world is ending here and I can’t figure why. A new tv deal is signed, a street race was a success, we’re getting a short track on the west coast, an iconic track was literally raised from the dead, a fan favorite just won the Cup…there’s a lot of good happening now. I think raising the HP can attract the new fans you’re searching for but car culture in kids isn’t what it was when I was growing up and really isn’t even when my dad was a kid in the 60’s and 70’s so maybe raising speed isn’t it but I think it’d be a start.

Nailed it.

 

[virtualbalboa]

Outside of the Carolinas, dirt is king.

But around here, CARS Tour is king.

That makes sense given the proximity to NASCAR, but at the same time, this is sorta like how in Indiana non-wing sprint cars and midgets are king and pavement mods are the biggest thing going in New England. You can't make that the basis of what the entire grassroots is doing.

 

[Charlie Spencer]

but the rest of the country it's WoO, and USAC for the most part and now High Limit also

That's the third reference to 'High Limit' in this discussion. Might be time to Google that, after my nap and Metamucil.

 

[StandOnIt]

That's the third reference to 'High Limit' in this discussion. Might be time to Google that, after my nap and Metamucil.

Go over to short tracks-high limit. More info here then the goog.

 

[Charlie Spencer]

Go over to short tracks-high limit. More info here then the goog.

Thanks. Their schedule shows they won't be within 300 miles of me. I have enough series to follow already anyway.

 

[AndyMarquisLive]

NASCAR was huge when millennials were in high school but ultimately it ended up being a fad. NASCAR thought the fad would last and made projections based on that. NASCAR also made some boneheaded decisions at their peak that people forget about because they just yell "PLAYOFFS BAD!" as an excuse for everything.

At its peak, NASCAR got rid of the Southern 500, gave second races to some of the most boring tracks on the circuit (Texas, Fontana), and introduced the COT (which produced ****** racing in its first couple of years).

Better decision making would have resulted in more sustained popularity. NASCAR didn't realize that people liked the sport as it was. Taking away popular tracks in favor of duds wasn't going to retain people and introducing a car that raced like a brick was the nail in the coffin. The issue isn't that NASCAR chased away its old fans, it's that it did little to keep the younger fanbase they had in the early-mid 2000s.

I still think there was a perfect storm of events in the mid-2000s that led to where we are. You hit on some of it.

The recession, NASCAR being a fad, COT, older fans being disillusioned, the BS with the Southern 500 and so on.

The TV coverage, to me, is a big one. 2007-2009 was right about the time Fox quit taking a serious approach to NASCAR and became more interested in making Darrell Waltrip a caricature, the cartoon gopher, goofy nicknames for all the drivers, and so on. Then we had "While We Were Away" starring Bill Weber on TNT. Finally, we had ESPN and ABC's horrible, no good, very bad, god awful, miserable, horrendous, absolutely dreadful, certified organic crap coverage.

All this happening during Jimmie Johnson's reign of terror.

 

[AndyMarquisLive]

And let's not forget Talladega Nights. Right after that movie came out, Fox Sports decided that's the image of the sport they wanted to portray.

 

[virtualbalboa]

I still think there was a perfect storm of events in the mid-2000s that led to where we are. You hit on some of it.

The recession, NASCAR being a fad, COT, older fans being disillusioned, the BS with the Southern 500 and so on.

Death by a thousand cuts. It's sort of like when people have silver bullet ideas to "fix" any series - see also "Indycar just needs a new car and everything will get better" that was tried repeatedly and found wanting.

 

[The Nature Boy]

Grassroots fans can watch a lot of different stuff. Looking at purse money, it seems clear to me that what the majority of grassroots motorsports fans in America are watching is dirt racing even if that doesn't have the cache in some parts of the Carolinas or around Mooresville.

The problem for NASCAR (and ironically NASCAR promotes this for some reason) is that "grassroots fans" are trending towards open wheel dirt racing, which does nothing to promote stock car racing.

There's late model racing happening around the country but you wouldn't know it because guys like Kyle Larson are getting attention for running an entirely different discipline of racing. If NASCAR wants to attract fans, they need to help tracks engage fans and stop promoting open wheel. Stock car racing doesn't have a strong grassroots right now. Look at this forum even, the open wheel stuff gets more attention, despite the NASCAR section being the most popular.

If NASCAR wants to hook young fans, they (and their drivers) need to do more to support the grassroots of the sport. It might be cost prohibitive for a guy in a small town to take his family to a NASCAR race, but he can likely afford the local short track. If a kid watches a late model race, he's more likely to be into NASCAR because the disciplines are so similar.

 

[Charlie Spencer]

I still think there was a perfect storm of events in the mid-2000s that led to where we are.

Just as there was a perfect storm in the early and mid-1990s that lead to the top of the mountain. Dale, Jeff, and networks looking for content.

I'm again reminded of the tennis craze of the mid-1970s and early 1980s. Everybody was buying racks, taking lessons, joining leagues, and scheduling courts. For whatever reasons, soon after the sport's popularity began a decline. Today it isn't nearly as popular, but it's still successful and all involved are making money. NASCAR's in a similar position.

 

[AndyMarquisLive]

Just as there was a perfect storm in the early and mid-1990s that lead to the top of the mountain.

Jeff Gordon vs. Dale Earnhardt is an all-time great sports rivalry that I'm honestly surprised hasn't been the subject of theatrical movies yet. Although, in a way, Days of Thunder was something of a precursor to that.

It's going to be very hard to recapture the magic that rivalry had. But it does not help when rivalries are squashed quickly by NASCAR's brass and by Rick Hendrick.