Silly Season 2020

Eh on his little piece on Lambert. I don't understand why they don't keep Randall & Reddick together and move Lambert to the 3.

Danny Stockman just isn't cutting it for AD anymore.
 
Formerjackman said:
All I'm saying is that TRD could have MUCH MORE easily afforded to keep Matt D. in the fold than Childress could keep Hemric, and when I said resources, what I was referring to the ability for Toyota to do B to B deals that end up costing them somewhat less actual money than somebody like Childress has at his disposal. Who is HE going to leverage, a wine bottle manufacturer?
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Capitalism.

In every racing series, amateur or professional, there are and have always been teams with greater resources than one or more of their competitors. This is not news.

The big hitters rise and fall. It’s the way of the world ... ask Rick Hendrick.
 
OK, we seem to have gotten off track on this one too. I'm not criticizing anyone's resources or lack of them at all. I was just trying to point out that RCR is far more constrained financially than TRD is. I think if RCR could have found sufficient sponsorship, they probably would have run Reddick AND Hemric. Given that that didn't happen, RCR was forced to go with the guy that looks to be the better bet. Sad for Hemric, but totally understandable. TRD on the other hand would have a much easier time carving out a place for Matt IF they wanted to, and it amazes me that they don't. I'm faulting TRD for the decision they made, not how much money they have , and I'm defending RCR for making a decision they probably didn't want to make, buy had little choice., and I'm just defending myself and others from the criticism that Revman leveled and pointing out why the two deals may look similar but aren't. Honestly, until he tried to tie the two situations together, it hadn't crossed my mind,
 
Formerjackman said:
OK, we seem to have gotten off track on this one too. I'm not criticizing anyone's resources or lack of them at all. I was just trying to point out that RCR is far more constrained financially than TRD is. I think if RCR could have found sufficient sponsorship, they probably would have run Reddick AND Hemric. Given that that didn't happen, RCR was forced to go with the guy that looks to be the better bet. Sad for Hemric, but totally understandable. TRD on the other hand would have a much easier time carving out a place for Matt IF they wanted to, and it amazes me that they don't. I'm faulting TRD for the decision they made, not how much money they have , and I'm defending RCR for making a decision they probably didn't want to make, buy had little choice., and I'm just defending myself and others from the criticism that Revman leveled and pointing out why the two deals may look similar but aren't. Honestly, until he tried to tie the two situations together, it hadn't crossed my mind,
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"faulting TRD"?

Take $20 million of your own money and fund your own NASCAR Team next season -- then hand it over to internet NASCAR and business "experts" who will make decisions and run your Team.

Sound stupid?

:D

#lackingselfawareness
 
The difference is 20 million is more than I will make in a few lifetimes. 20 million to Toyota is the loose change in the cup holder. And who says it has to be 20 million? By all accounts, LFR is running Matt now on a shoestring and getting some solid results. Imagine what throwing in just a third of that 20 million might do. I haven't heard anyone say anything about how much money they have poured into Christopher Bell, a guy with ZERO Cup starts. I also pointed out that Toyota could probably lean on some of their business partners and help pick up some of the slack, AND, since they have PLENTY of Cup drivers and have no pressing need to develop more, perhaps they trim the budget of the Xfinity program a little too. The point is, Toyota HAD a guy that is not only exceeding expectations, but is infinitely more likeable than ANY driver they have, they're willing to throw that away for a unproven commodity. Call me crazy if you want, but I DO fault Toyota for that. I look at the Rick Hendrick model. Pretty much every time real talent has fallen into his lap, he locked up the driver and filled in the details later. Jeff Gordon, Kyle Busch, Chase Elliott, William Byron). You could even put Johnson on that list, but he was MUCH more of a gamble.
 
Formerjackman said:
I was just trying to point out that RCR is far more constrained financially than TRD is.
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We’re all aware of that.

Did you speak out during the decade or so that saw Hendrick Motorsports out-spend, out-test, out-engineer and generally whip up on all its competitors? Did you complain when HMS introduced the 5 then 7 now 8 post shaker rig to the workshops of the other NASCAR team owners? And the squadrons of mechanical engineers, the VIMM machine and the around the clock wind tunnel test cycle?

Racers race. The real green flag flies early Monday morning and the checkers are waved when the last guy falls asleep on the Sunday night flight home. HMS first with a VP of marketing because that’s also a race.

Richard Childress started with nothing but a rather sad racecar that he hauled on a flat deck. Today, the gentleman owns his race team, a beautiful home, a ranch, a winery and a portfolio of Charlotte real estate and I rather doubt that he is personally cash-poor. His business acumen was financially enabled by the generosity of Mr. Goodwrench.

Perhaps he should have peeled off a little less cash and used it for its intended purpose. That’s it ... the last word is yours.
 
I can't figure out why you think I'm mad at Toyota for the amount of money they have or that I am begrudging them for it. If you want to get into a discussion of how Mr. Childress spent his money, fine, but I though we were talking about what he HAS, not what he SHOULD have. My ONLY beef with Toyota in this instance is that they COULD have afforded to do something I think would have been in their best interest and they chose not to. Is that so wrong? The ONLY reason we are having this conversation is because Revman wondered why we weren't piling on Childress for doing in his mind what TRD did. Well first off, many people WERE critical of RC, and secondly, all I was pointing out is that TRD could afford to do things that RCR couldn't, end of story. Honestly, I think you go out of your way to misunderstand my points. I could care less if you disagree with me, but it pains me when you don't even seem to UNDERSTAND what I'm saying.
 
LewTheShoe said:
Data analytics guru David Smith weighs in on Tyler Reddick's promotion to the Cup Series, and delivers a strong endorsement of RCR's decision to move Reddick into the 8 car. He finds Reddick's break-out performance in 2019 a more convincing indicator of future potential than his lackluster 2018 stats... even while winning the Xfinity championship.

When Smith was writing for his own small independent website (Motorsports Analytics), he earned a reputation for pointed, data driven commentary both positive and negative. One never got the sense that he would temper his comments to avoid ruffling feathers. Since moving on staff at The Athletic, his approach thankfully remains the same. His Tyler Reddick "transaction analysis" is worth a read, in the quote box below.
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Nice breakdown article of why Reddick was too hot to pass up. Hemric's struggles made the decision all the more easier for Richard I'm sure.

Any mention of AD's PEER in that subscription? "0.694 for Hemric in the last 18 races, a hair better than Stenhouse".

Still wish they could have kept all 3 on, but that's business.
 
Formerjackman said:
I can't figure out why you think I'm mad at Toyota for the amount of money they have or that I am begrudging them for it. If you want to get into a discussion of how Mr. Childress spent his money, fine, but I though we were talking about what he HAS, not what he SHOULD have. My ONLY beef with Toyota in this instance is that they COULD have afforded to do something I think would have been in their best interest and they chose not to. Is that so wrong? The ONLY reason we are having this conversation is because Revman wondered why we weren't piling on Childress for doing in his mind what TRD did. Well first off, many people WERE critical of RC, and secondly, all I was pointing out is that TRD could afford to do things that RCR couldn't, end of story. Honestly, I think you go out of your way to misunderstand my points. I could care less if you disagree with me, but it pains me when you don't even seem to UNDERSTAND what I'm saying.
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Reading comprehension is not one of my weaknesses.

You’re a long time supporter of the team that set the gold standard for out-spending it’s competitors but somehow TRD bad because vast resources.
 
TRD has said quantity doesnt equal quality on the track. I think they wisely stick to that. I would say it sucks for Matt D but the truth is is didn't. He was in second tier Toyota equipment anyway.
 
aunty dive said:
Reading comprehension is not one of my weaknesses.

You’re a long time supporter of the team that set the gold standard for out-spending it’s competitors but somehow TRD bad because vast resources.
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My God, I swear my head is going to explode. I'm TRYING to make the point that Toyota should have USED some of those vast resources to keep a very talented and likeable driver in their fold. What part of that is so hard to understand? Where did I EVER slam Toyota for the amount of money they have?
 
10-4 said:
TRD has said quantity doesnt equal quality on the track. I think they wisely stick to that. I would say it sucks for Matt D but the truth is is didn't. He was in second tier Toyota equipment anyway.
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Well who's fault was it that it's second tier equipment, and why is it suddenly going to be considerably better equipment once Bell slides into the seat? I agree 100% that quantity doesn't equal quality, but in this case, they could have had BOTH. Truthfully, I'm glad Matt will NOT be driving a Toyota next year, I'm only trying to make sense of this from a business and competition standpoint.
 
Formerjackman said:
Well who's fault was it that it's second tier equipment, and why is it suddenly going to be considerably better equipment once Bell slides into the seat? I agree 100% that quantity doesn't equal quality, but in this case, they could have had BOTH. Truthfully, I'm glad Matt will NOT be driving a Toyota next year, I'm only trying to make sense of this from a business and competition standpoint.
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Since when is it up to a manufacturer to fund a race team to the point to where they are the major source of the budget? The reason the equipment will be better for Bell is he will have JGR to foot the bills Leavine couldnt for Matt.
 
Formerjackman said:
My God, I swear my head is going to explode. I'm TRYING to make the point that Toyota should have USED some of those vast resources to keep a very talented and likeable driver in their fold. What part of that is so hard to understand? Where did I EVER slam Toyota for the amount of money they have?
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Are you really in a better position than Toyota to know what is best for their NASCAR program?

Or how to spend its money, utilize its resources...?
 
Spotter22 said:
Since when is it up to a manufacturer to fund a race team to the point to where they are the major source of the budget? The reason the equipment will be better for Bell is he will have JGR to foot the bills Leavine couldnt for Matt.
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That's the problem I have with these alliances. No matter how you slice it JGR will be a 5 car team next year.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 
Formerjackman said:
Well who's fault was it that it's second tier equipment, and why is it suddenly going to be considerably better equipment once Bell slides into the seat? I agree 100% that quantity doesn't equal quality, but in this case, they could have had BOTH. Truthfully, I'm glad Matt will NOT be driving a Toyota next year, I'm only trying to make sense of this from a business and competition standpoint.
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It remains to be seen if Bell gets a first rate JGR ride with the 95 car or the same castoff year old backup type like Matt D gets. We'll never really know what the business in's and out's of this deal are. All we can do is judge at a later date based on results. There's nothing for anyone to be mad or upset about here. These are contracts and this is business. That's how business works to the benefit of all.
 
Ventisca said:
Are you really in a better position than Toyota to know what is best for their NASCAR program?

Or how to spend its money, utilize its resources...?
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I have an opinion, just like you do. It's MY opinion that keeping Matt D. in their fold was in their best interest in the long run, and that it COULD have been done without breaking the bank. You are free to have a different point of view.
 
Formerjackman said:
I have an opinion, just like you do. It's MY opinion that keeping Matt D. in their fold was in their best interest in the long run, and that it COULD have been done without breaking the bank. You are free to have a different point of view.
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Hmmm, you could be on to something.
 
Spotter22 said:
Since when is it up to a manufacturer to fund a race team to the point to where they are the major source of the budget? The reason the equipment will be better for Bell is he will have JGR to foot the bills Leavine couldnt for Matt.
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Well I think we have to be honest about who's driving the bus in all of this. It has come to the point that it's hard to tell the difference between TRD and JGR, and nobody is exactly dispelling the impression that Toyota is basically calling the shots on who is in the development program, and who gets to move up. What it boils down to is IF Toyota had seen value in keeping Matt, they could have made it all work out. They decided to cast him aside. I think that is a mistake long term. They had a Cup experienced driver that is ready to win races NOW, and could likely be had for a rather modest salary and they decided to put all of their eggs in the basket of a driver with zero Cup starts. I think if Toyota had shown a real commitment to Matt, more outside sponsorship would likely have come forward anyway. All I'm suggesting Toyota had to do was to help bridge the gap.
 
Ventisca said:
Hmmm, you could be on to something.
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Well first off, what makes your opinion more valuable than mine, and second, I haven't checked my portfolio lately, but chances are I DO own some stock. Looking at the phone book worth of paperwork I get from time to time, I think every Fortune 500 company and a whole lot more is on the lists.
 
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Formerjackman said:
... What it boils down to is IF Toyota had seen value in keeping Matt, they could have made it all work out. They decided to cast him aside. I think that is a mistake long term. They had a Cup experienced driver that is ready to win races NOW, and could likely be had for a rather modest salary and they decided to put all of their eggs in the basket of a driver with zero Cup starts. I think if Toyota had shown a real commitment to Matt, more outside sponsorship would likely have come forward anyway. All I'm suggesting Toyota had to do was to help bridge the gap.
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Toyota has an All-Star line-up in Cup of MTJ, Hamlin, KyBu -- with Erik Jones as a winning talent and Bell as a fresh young up-and-coming winning talent from Xfinity/Trucks. Seems like ToyCo is at the top of Cup having made excellent choices in developing and running their NASCAR program.
 
Formerjackman said:
Well I think we have to be honest about who's driving the bus in all of this. It has come to the point that it's hard to tell the difference between TRD and JGR, and nobody is exactly dispelling the impression that Toyota is basically calling the shots on who is in the development program, and who gets to move up. What it boils down to is IF Toyota had seen value in keeping Matt, they could have made it all work out. They decided to cast him aside. I think that is a mistake long term. They had a Cup experienced driver that is ready to win races NOW, and could likely be had for a rather modest salary and they decided to put all of their eggs in the basket of a driver with zero Cup starts. I think if Toyota had shown a real commitment to Matt, more outside sponsorship would likely have come forward anyway. All I'm suggesting Toyota had to do was to help bridge the gap.
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Toyota has a budget like anyone else that they have to stay inline with. Just because you think they can whip out another 20 Million (because they have it) and keep Matt D in a car doesnt mean their boardroom agrees with it.
 
Spotter22 said:
Toyota has a budget like anyone else that they have to stay inline with. Just because you think they can whip out another 20 Million (because they have it) and keep Matt D in a car doesnt mean their boardroom agrees with it.
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Boom.

Couldn't have said it any better.
 
Spotter22 said:
Toyota has a budget like anyone else that they have to stay inline with. Just because you think they can whip out another 20 Million (because they have it) and keep Matt D in a car doesnt mean their boardroom agrees with it.
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pretty evident to me anyway the Yoders either have a tight budget, or their plan is less is more. Running only 4 contending cars is good for the bottom line, but as far as helping the field with car counts, not so much. If every OEM took it upon themselves and did the same thing, we would have around 15 cars in the field trying to outspend each other. Some think that is great, I think it would be like the F-1 series with hardly any competition and a huge outlay of funds.
 
JGR 4
Penske 3
HMS 4
SHR 4
CGR 2
RFR 2
RCR 2
--------
21 Cars from the bigger players.

Add a few sometimes-competitive alliance teams in the mix and you're somewhere in the mid-20s for Great-to-Mediocre cars.

Adding anything beyond that is just adding back markers -- which typically means adding more lousy to the mix. So the size of the field isn't necessarily better for racing. I also get the notion that Toyota adding more cars maybe adding better cars fo the field.

As a Ford Fan, I applaud Toyota for its effective use of the cars they run in Cup and their Driver development which makes NASCAR better -- imho.
 
Like I said some will think it is great. Only 4 cars representing a brand is wonderful for some compared to 9 Fords and 8 Chevys. Waiting for the less is more comment and what a great job Toyota is doing to catch the Hudsons.
 
Spotter22 said:
Toyota has a budget like anyone else that they have to stay inline with. Just because you think they can whip out another 20 Million (because they have it) and keep Matt D in a car doesnt mean their boardroom agrees with it.
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I think I have explained in MORE than one post why I don't think the spend would be anywhere near 20 million, but it's obvious to me that many people here don't even want to CONSIDER a different point of view, so I'm moving on from the conversation. I also hate to say this because this situation is not HIS fault, but if Bell underwhelms in Cup next year, I'll be laughing my ass off.
 
Formerjackman said:
I think I have explained in MORE than one post why I don't think the spend would be anywhere near 20 million, but it's obvious to me that many people here don't even want to CONSIDER a different point of view, so I'm moving on from the conversation. I also hate to say this because this situation is not HIS fault, but if Bell underwhelms in Cup next year, I'll be laughing my ass off.
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OK, say its 10 million, 5 million. My comments dont change about it.
 
Why are they spending money on development drivers they don't even have seats for? Why not just close down the entire NASCAR program and save even MORE money?
 
Formerjackman said:
Why are they spending money on development drivers they don't even have seats for? Why not just close down the entire NASCAR program and save even MORE money?
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where is this happening? They have two full time trucks, two full time Xfinity cars o_O You've been listening to the MEDIA too much
 
Formerjackman said:
Why are they spending money on development drivers they don't even have seats for? Why not just close down the entire NASCAR program and save even MORE money?
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Sometimes, successful business who wish to remain successful plan for the future.
 
Formerjackman said:
I think I have explained in MORE than one post why I don't think the spend would be anywhere near 20 million, but it's obvious to me that many people here don't even want to CONSIDER a different point of view, so I'm moving on from the conversation. I also hate to say this because this situation is not HIS fault, but if Bell underwhelms in Cup next year, I'll be laughing my ass off.
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Bell won’t underperform. When it’s all said and done, Bell’s best will be better than Matt’s best. Matt might be better right now maybe but I’d take Bell 100/100 times over Matt. Toyota and JGR made the right decision long term....JGR keeps him somewhat in house close by for when the Good Sheppard/Preacher calls him back home to replace whoever next will become family and TRD keeps him in their program/cars. Whatever type of money you felt it would take to keep Matt...the better investment was to keep Bell IMO. The riskier play was losing Bell. Bottom line is If you felt Toyota had/has the money to keep Matt, they didn’t want to spend it to keep him in one of their cars. And they have every right to do that, I’ve learned here in my almost 3 years here it’s poppy **** spending someone else’s money.
 
Ventisca said:
As a Ford Fan, I applaud Toyota for its effective use of the cars they run in Cup and their Driver development which makes NASCAR better -- imho.
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My complaint about Toyota is how they have spiraled upward the cost of an OEM even being in Nascar racing... because that just hastens the time Chevy and/or Ford decide to withdraw. As @Revman loves to remind us, Toyota has redefined the business model of an OEM in Nascar by the factory assuming various key functions that were previously team responsibilities.

For example, The Athletic reports that Toyota has spent at least $23 million over four years to develop Christopher Bell as a driver, not including the millions more spent on other Toyota development drivers. Driver development has always been a team activity before Toyota. Or another example... Toyota's factory-owned turnkey engine shop, which TRD-supported teams are required to use, a sharp contrast to Chevy and Ford practices.

My bottom line conclusion: it has become what Jack Roush said it would become. No bueno, IMO.

Turtle84 said:
Nice breakdown article of why Reddick was too hot to pass up. Hemric's struggles made the decision all the more easier for Richard I'm sure.

Any mention of AD's PEER in that subscription? "0.694 for Hemric in the last 18 races, a hair better than Stenhouse".
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Over 27 races, Austin Dillon's PEER is 0.704 and that is a tie with Aric Almirola for 19th best. A custom time period like "the last 18 races" is not available, but it's safe to say "Big Hat, No Cattle" is not lighting the stock car world on fire.
 
Snappy D said:
Bell won’t underperform. When it’s all said and done, Bell’s best will be better than Matt’s best. Matt might be better right now maybe but I’d take Bell 100/100 times over Matt. Toyota and JGR made the right decision long term....JGR keeps him somewhat in house close by for when the Good Sheppard/Preacher calls him back home to replace whoever next will become family and TRD keeps him in their program/cars. Whatever type of money you felt it would take to keep Matt...the better investment was to keep Bell IMO. The riskier play was losing Bell. Bottom line is If you felt Toyota had/has the money to keep Matt, they didn’t want to spend it to keep him in one of their cars. And they have every right to do that, I’ve learned here in my almost 3 years here it’s poppy **** spending someone else’s money.
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Bell's Xfinity stats are that of a machine. I think you'll probably end up being right on his talent. But, I also think he'll hold the superior equipment over MattyD for life.
 
Turtle84 said:
Bell's Xfinity stats are that of a machine. I think you'll probably end up being right on his talent. But, I also think he'll hold the superior equipment over MattyD for life.
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The problem with Bell's stats are is it the car or the driver? Let's face it JGR equipment and support in the Xfinity series is I feel significantly better than everyone else.

Look are Jone's stats in the Xfinity series and now see what he's done in cup?

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