Still waiting Eillot's win

[FLRacingFan]

Driver ratings through Chicagoland -

12) Chase Elliott - 84.7
13) Jimmie Johnson - 80.7
15) Alex Bowman 76.8
21) William Byron - 69.3

Besides the three crashes (two at Daytona) he's finished outside of 12th three times. He should be safer into the playoffs than he is but that's how it goes at plate tracks.

 

[ChexOrWrex]

I can't help but think how many here would be placing an asterisk next to this win had Chase Elliott been the one to win a plate race with about a handful of fully intact cars running at the end.

Only Cup wins are Daytona duels. Asterisks galore.

 

[Revman]

Gibbs has two drivers just as young as as the Hendrick Kids, and the third driver is, well, Denny Hamlin, so I don';t see where Gibb's feedback is THAT much better than Hendrick's is. Would more experience help the three young HMS drivers? Sure it would, but I don't find a whole lot of fault with the their driving at all, in fact, sometimes it seems like they make fewer mistakes than Johnson does. Elliott has already proven that when he has a decent car he is top tier driver. Just look at the playoffs last year. Byron is a little rough around the edges, but I don't think there is any question the ability is there. Bowman is a GRINDER, just like I thought he would be. That kid makes VERY few mistakes and he';s going to get everything the car can offer. How many wrecks did he get sucked into last night and STILL came home 10th? Better cars would solve a LOT of problems. Less time wasted in practice, better qualifying results, better pit stalls and less time racing around the mid-packers.

You have a good point, and I think that Toyota's slow start with the Camry last year had a lot to do with the rookies. However, I do think that TRD does business differently when it comes to information sharing. Chevy is in a different place with this IMO, and it is hurting them right now.

 

[Revman]

I can't help but think how many here would be placing an asterisk next to this win had Chase Elliott been the one to win a plate race with about a handful of fully intact cars running at the end.

Really? Is there such a thing as Chase Hate?

 

[Kiante]

Really? Is there such a thing as Chase Hate?

Yeah, there is a lot of hate towards Chase. Well, Twitter is a cesspool anyways, but a lot of people are talking about how Buescher, Jones, and Blaney have won before Chase.

Two involved some interesting circumstsnces (not diminishing Buescher or Jones at all) and Blaney took his race. Chase has been the better driver in general, just some losses were his fault and others were oddities. Chase has finished 2nd eight times in his career already.

I think Chase has been as advertised, he's solidified himself as a top drivers in NASCAR. So has Blaney, albeit a bit more inconsistent, as one of the best in the field.

 

[AdoubleU24]

Really? Is there such a thing as Chase Hate?

I don't know that it's hate necessarily, but there is definitely a narrative against him that stems from somewhere I can't figure out.

You have a good point, and I think that Toyota's slow start with the Camry last year had a lot to do with the rookies. However, I do think that TRD does business differently when it comes to information sharing. Chevy is in a different place with this IMO, and it is hurting them right now.

I agree with this. I also think Ford and TRD have poured so much into the sport resource-wise over the years as they got sick of playing second fiddle that they are now reaping the rewards. It's Chevy's time to do the same as they more than likely got a little lax by spending so much time at the top with no real threat.

 

[ChexOrWrex]

I don't know that it's hate necessarily, but there is definitely a narrative against him that stems from somewhere I can't figure out.

Majority low life Gordon haters that had to move elsewhere after retirement.

Then theres people like Andy that read half assed articles and make assumptions that everyone thinks the same way as the writer and hates the fans rather than the driver or the writer. Zero logic.

 

[Formerjackman]

I don't know that it's hate necessarily, but there is definitely a narrative against him that stems from somewhere I can't figure out.

Oh, there's definitely an undercurrent of dislike out there. "Silver spooner", drives for Hendrick, drives a Chevy, hasn't won a Cup race yet, not aggressive enough, over-rated, etc. etc. The biggest single reason for the dislike is that so many DO like him. Personally, I don't care whether somebody likes him or not, (although I can't really see any reason not to) what I care about is people sticking to the facts and keeping the whole thing in perspective with him. If he's not your guy, then fine, he's not your guy, but I don't see any reason to take pot shots at him over it. I think it's completely possible to discuss the disappointments in his young career so far without it turning into a hate fest. One has very little to do with the other. There's a LOT of drivers I don't care for, but I try to never let it cloud my judgment about their ability or success. Jones is not one of my guys and likely never will be. That doesn't change the fact that he's a pretty damn good young racer who has never really done anything to anybody, and while I might not pull for him, I won't bash him either.

 

[Towmater]

Oh, there's definitely an undercurrent of dislike out there. "Silver spooner", drives for Hendrick, drives a Chevy, hasn't won a Cup race yet, not aggressive enough, over-rated, etc. etc. The biggest single reason for the dislike is that so many DO like him. Personally, I don't care whether somebody likes him or not, (although I can't really see any reason not to) what I care about is people sticking to the facts and keeping the whole thing in perspective with him. If he's not your guy, then fine, he's not your guy, but I don't see any reason to take pot shots at him over it. I think it's completely possible to discuss the disappointments in his young career so far without it turning into a hate fest. One has very little to do with the other. There's a LOT of drivers I don't care for, but I try to never let it cloud my judgment about their ability or success. Jones is not one of my guys and likely never will be. That doesn't change the fact that he's a pretty damn good young racer who has never really done anything to anybody, and while I might not pull for him, I won't bash him either.

I don't like him for the same reason that I dislike Austin Dillon. They are both manufactured. They didn't bubble up to the surface. Fans are supposed to like them because of their linage to some days of old that is supposed to bring back fond memories.

I'd much rather watch Aric Almirola, Kyle Larsen, Ryan Blaney, and Erik Jones. None of them have been forced on the fan base.

 

[LJ7201]

Gibbs has two drivers just as young as as the Hendrick Kids, and the third driver is, well, Denny Hamlin, so I don';t see where Gibb's feedback is THAT much better than Hendrick's is. Would more experience help the three young HMS drivers? Sure it would, but I don't find a whole lot of fault with the their driving at all, in fact, sometimes it seems like they make fewer mistakes than Johnson does. Elliott has already proven that when he has a decent car he is top tier driver. Just look at the playoffs last year. Byron is a little rough around the edges, but I don't think there is any question the ability is there. Bowman is a GRINDER, just like I thought he would be. That kid makes VERY few mistakes and he';s going to get everything the car can offer. How many wrecks did he get sucked into last night and STILL came home 10th? Better cars would solve a LOT of problems. Less time wasted in practice, better qualifying results, better pit stalls and less time racing around the mid-packers.

1. SHR
2. Penske
3. JGR/FRR
4. HMS

That's the 2018 "hierarchy" so far and it corresponds exactly with driver experience. Yes JGR is young, but HMS is younger. Also nobody expected them to be outran by HMS this year based on recent trends anyways.

The cars are gonna be slow when the drivers don't know how to make them fast. I'm not arguing that Chevy isn't behind engineering - wise, but bringing in a new car the same year you have major roster turnover maybe wasn't the best idea. Experienced cup drivers know what to ask for and what changes to make, it's not Byron/Bowman/Elliott's fault that they haven't been there long enough either. They just have to stay patient and not get discouraged.

 

[Formerjackman]

1. SHR
2. Penske
3. JGR/FRR
4. HMS

That's the 2018 "hierarchy" so far and it corresponds exactly with driver experience. Yes JGR is young, but HMS is younger. Also nobody expected them to be outran by HMS this year based on recent trends anyways.

The cars are gonna be slow when the drivers don't know how to make them fast. I'm not arguing that Chevy isn't behind engineering - wise, but bringing in a new car the same year you have major roster turnover maybe wasn't the best idea. Experienced cup drivers know what to ask for and what changes to make, it's not Byron/Bowman/Elliott's fault that they haven't been there long enough either. They just have to stay patient and not get discouraged.

OK, but was HMS REALLY any better LAST YEAR, when they had Dale and Kasey instead of Alex and William? Chase was a little better, but the other three cars really weren't. As I said, driver experience would help, but I think it's only a very small part of the story. I would say age and experience has a lot more to do with how you finish then how you start and how you run, and right now, they don't do ANY of that very well.

 

[Formerjackman]

I don't like him for the same reason that I dislike Austin Dillon. They are both manufactured. They didn't bubble up to the surface. Fans are supposed to like them because of their linage to some days of old that is supposed to bring back fond memories.

I'd much rather watch Aric Almirola, Kyle Larsen, Ryan Blaney, and Erik Jones. None of them have been forced on the fan base.

I guess I don't relate to that thinking. The ONLY drivers I ever felt were kind of forced on the fan base were Dale Jr. and Danica, and I do not then or now have anything against either one of them personally. Even though the drivers often benefit from the hype, I try not to hold it against them unless I feel they are buying into too much of it themselves. Everybody has something to sell, NASCAR, the drivers, the teams, the sponsors, the media, and they are going to promote what they feel will get them rate of return. It's a LOT easier to talk up Elliott, who's father everyone knows, than Almirola, who has bounced around in obscurity for decade or so, and I say that as a big Almirola supporter.

 

[Kiante]

I don't like him for the same reason that I dislike Austin Dillon. They are both manufactured. They didn't bubble up to the surface. Fans are supposed to like them because of their linage to some days of old that is supposed to bring back fond memories.

I'd much rather watch Aric Almirola, Kyle Larsen, Ryan Blaney, and Erik Jones. None of them have been forced on the fan base.

This is my issue right here, he still had to work his way up like anyone else did. Chase, Austin, and Ty had it easier. At the same time, Chase was impressive and earned his spot, it was not given to him. He proved himself to be a damn good driver and that's fine if he came up from family ties. It wasn't given to him, hell even Paul Menard earned his dad's sponsorship through the years.

Talent is talent and I blame the media for forcing the issue, I enjoy all of the young guys coming up and not take anything away front them. Blame NASCAR for shoving this **** down in peoples faces, its not Chase's problem and he's not an attention seeker. A lot of drivers have different stories, that's what makes NASCAR great tbh.

 

[Formerjackman]

This is my issue right here, he still had to work his way up like anyone else did. Chase, Austin, and Ty had it easier. At the same time, Chase was impressive and earned his spot, it was not given to him. He proved himself to be a damn good driver and that's fine if he came up from family ties. It wasn't given to him, hell even Paul Menard earned his dad's sponsorship through the years.

Talent is talent and I blame the media for forcing the issue, I enjoy all of the young guys coming up and not take anything away front them. Blame NASCAR for shoving this sh!t down in peoples faces, its not Chase's problem and he's not an attention seeker. A lot of drivers have different stories, that's what makes NASCAR great tbh.

Very well said. AND, remember that this has been going on in one form or another since Richard Petty and Buddy Baker joined NASCAR. Heck, Richard and Kyle got to Cup thanks to their Dads without ever really even competing elsewhere at all. And besides, you don't get to pick who your parents are.

 

[Privateer]

I don't like him for the same reason that I dislike Austin Dillon. They are both manufactured. They didn't bubble up to the surface. Fans are supposed to like them because of their linage to some days of old that is supposed to bring back fond memories.

I'd much rather watch Aric Almirola, Kyle Larsen, Ryan Blaney, and Erik Jones. None of them have been forced on the fan base.

I agree with your line of thinking as far as the why. To be fair, if Dale Earnhardt Jr. had any other name he'd've probably never gotten out of Myrtle Beach, and he was the most popular driver in the Series by far the past decade.

Last year in a starting lineup, I counted 7 drivers that were from North Carolina, and 6 of the 7 were the son or grandson of somebody (the Dillons, Blaney, Junior, LaJoie, and Jeffrey Earnhardt, the 7th that was not related to anyone was an anonymous backmarker), It's just how racing works when sponsorship is down. People readily attach to a name. So they have an easier rise up because money is very available and their relations know how the game works, who to talk to, etc.

It's not Chase's fault though, just as it isn't Marco Andretti's for example. I'm sure they try hard and do their best, but there's something true in auto racing of to go Dale Earnhardt Sr. for a second "I need to win to pay the bills this coming week" that forces the guys that do make it into better drivers. It's something that's gotten lost in all of auto racing the past few decades. The modern version is for the best guys it's now more "if you don't win this race, we're done spending money on your career", which is something that created Josef Newgarden for instance but Chase Elliott was never going to experience that.

That said, think it's more the cars are crap than anything.

 

[LJ7201]

OK, but was HMS REALLY any better LAST YEAR, when they had Dale and Kasey instead of Alex and William? Chase was a little better, but the other three cars really weren't. As I said, driver experience would help, but I think it's only a very small part of the story. I would say age and experience has a lot more to do with how you finish then how you start and how you run, and right now, they don't do ANY of that very well.

Jimmie won 3 races. Kahne won 1. Dale was a shell of himself after his injury so Bowman may have been a lateral move. HMS indeed was better last year despite not setting the world on fire.

 

[Privateer]

Jimmie won 3 races. Kahne won 1. Dale was a shell of himself after his injury so Bowman may have been a lateral move. HMS indeed was better last year despite not setting the world on fire.

Jimmie was nowhere to be found the last half of the season and Kahne's win was about as flukish as you could get outside of restrictor plates and rain-aided.

 

[Formerjackman]

Jimmie was nowhere to be found the last half of the season and Kahne's win was about as flukish as you could get outside of restrictor plates and rain-aided.

Heck, the races Johnson won were just about the ONLY ones he ran well in last year.

 

[Formerjackman]

vgc

I agree with your line of thinking as far as the why. To be fair, if Dale Earnhardt Jr. had any other name he'd've probably never gotten out of Myrtle Beach, and he was the most popular driver in the Series by far the past decade.

Last year in a starting lineup, I counted 7 drivers that were from North Carolina, and 6 of the 7 were the son or grandson of somebody (the Dillons, Blaney, Junior, LaJoie, and Jeffrey Earnhardt, the 7th that was not related to anyone was an anonymous backmarker), It's just how racing works when sponsorship is down. People readily attach to a name. So they have an easier rise up because money is very available and their relations know how the game works, who to talk to, etc.

It's not Chase's fault though, just as it isn't Marco Andretti's for example. I'm sure they try hard and do their best, but there's something true in auto racing of to go Dale Earnhardt Sr. for a second "I need to win to pay the bills this coming week" that forces the guys that do make it into better drivers. It's something that's gotten lost in all of auto racing the past few decades. The modern version is for the best guys it's now more "if you don't win this race, we're done spending money on your career", which is something that created Josef Newgarden for instance but Chase Elliott was never going to experience that.

That said, think it's more the cars are crap than anything.

You mentioned Dale Earnhardt Sr. Even though he obviously didn't benefit financially from his dad, and his dad wasn't there to give him the final push into Cup, would Dale have ever been anything but a lint head without his dad's teaching and guidance? Ralph exposed Dale to the sport and made it look glamorous. He let him work on his race cars and then taught by example out on the track. Also don't think that a few doors didn't open for him because of who his father was. People remembered what kind of driver Ralph Earnhardt was and probably looked a little more favorably towards him. Would Humpy Wheeler, or Will Kronkrite or Ed Negre have paid ANY attention to the unpolished hard driving short track daredevil without that Earnhardt name?

 

[Privateer]

vgc

You mentioned Dale Earnhardt Sr. Even though he obviously didn't benefit financially from his dad, and his dad wasn't there to give him the final push into Cup, would Dale have ever been anything but a lint head without his dad's teaching and guidance? Ralph exposed Dale to the sport and made it look glamorous. He let him work on his race cars and then taught by example out on the track. Also don't think that a few doors didn't open for him because of who his father was. People remembered what kind of driver Ralph Earnhardt was and probably looked a little more favorably towards him. Would Humpy Wheeler, or Will Kronkrite or Ed Negre have paid ANY attention to the unpolished hard driving short track daredevil without that Earnhardt name?

You are correct. I would say the main difference is Dale came up in an era though where if he didn't win, he wouldn't have gotten promoted on. That's not how things work in racing today because it's more sponsorship money-driven versus purse money-driven. And Jeff Gordon changed the sport forever into companies wanting to sponsor 20-year-olds whether they were ready or not.

 

[Towmater]

This is my issue right here, he still had to work his way up like anyone else did. Chase, Austin, and Ty had it easier. At the same time, Chase was impressive and earned his spot, it was not given to him. He proved himself to be a damn good driver and that's fine if he came up from family ties. It wasn't given to him, hell even Paul Menard earned his dad's sponsorship through the years.

Talent is talent and I blame the media for forcing the issue, I enjoy all of the young guys coming up and not take anything away front them. Blame NASCAR for shoving this sh!t down in peoples faces, its not Chase's problem and he's not an attention seeker. A lot of drivers have different stories, that's what makes NASCAR great tbh.

I never stated that Chase sought the limelight. I stated that he and Dillon were manufactured. What do I mean? Dillon looks like a PR person made a caricature of a NASCAR driver, dressed Dillon that way, and sent him out on the track.

Number 3 on his car like Sr. - check
Cowboy hat like the King's - check
Beard like Jimmy Johnson - check
Dances horribly like DW after a win - check

Being manufactured and being forced on me turns me off a driver.

Before I forget, I'd like to add Bubba to my list of driver's I'd rather watch.

 

[AdoubleU24]

I never stated that Chase sought the limelight. I stated that he and Dillon were manufactured. What do I mean? Dillon looks like a PR person made a caricature of a NASCAR driver, dressed Dillon that way, and sent him out on the track.

Number 3 on his car like Sr. - check
Cowboy hat like the King's - check
Beard like Jimmy Johnson - check
Dances horribly like DW after a win - check

Being manufactured and being forced on me turns me off a driver.

Before I forget, I'd like to add Bubba to my list of driver's I'd rather watch.

Following the same template you've laid out here, how does Chase fit into this mold that you claim? I'm trying to think of his signature "thing", but all that comes to mind is he's humble and carries himself/sponsors/HMS the right way and acts as a good role model.

 

[StandOnIt]

somebody manufacturing what he thinks is manufactured...check

 

[HoneyBadger]

Majority low life Gordon haters that had to move elsewhere after retirement.

Then theres people like Andy that read half assed articles and make assumptions that everyone thinks the same way as the writer and hates the fans rather than the driver or the writer. Zero logic.

Then there are Chase Elliott fans who think everything I say is "bashing Chase Elliott". I said he needed to be more aggressive and I was bashing, even though it was the truth and Chase himself has said that. I said all the Chevy teams are off this year, when defending Chase Elliott, and I was bashing Chase Elliott. I say I feel like he's good enough to win races each year and maybe a championship or two and I'm bashing Chase Elliott. I defended Chase Elliott one time and talked about how humble he is and how he's a really good dude, and sure enough, I was "bashing" him.

Hell, I was "bashing" when I said Chase Elliott is a great driver but has been overrated in the media. Chase Elliott fans acted like fans of the movie Black Panther over that. If you didn't think Black Panther was the greatest movie in cinematic history (it wasn't), you were just a hater. If you don't think Chase Elliott is the second coming of Jeff Gordon, you're a hater.

This is cult-like stuff.

 

[HoneyBadger]

Following the same template you've laid out here, how does Chase fit into this mold that you claim? I'm trying to think of his signature "thing", but all that comes to mind is he's humble and carries himself/sponsors/HMS the right way and acts as a good role model.

He doesn't. Chase's humble attitude and how he composes himself is who he is, genuinely. I could find an interview I did with him, on the spot (not coached or anything) that validates that.

I think the thing that puts people off to Chase is the same thing that put people off to Logano back in 2009-2012, the hype.

 

[jws926]

I think the thing that puts people off to Chase is the same thing that put people off to Logano back in 2009-2012, the hype.

This right here , I do agree that I think it puts a lot of people off.

 

[Towmater]

somebody manufacturing what he thinks is manufactured...check

Maybe you should go back to telling us all how bad Dale Jr. was going to be in the booth. Wanna know a secret? He's great in the booth. Is that why you stopped sharing that with us all?

 

[Towmater]

Following the same template you've laid out here, how does Chase fit into this mold that you claim? I'm trying to think of his signature "thing", but all that comes to mind is he's humble and carries himself/sponsors/HMS the right way and acts as a good role model.

Hmmm, the number of races that somebody ran before his first win - check

 

[StandOnIt]

This right here , I do agree that I think it puts a lot of people off.

I don't think so, Elliott has tons of fans, this place isn't the place to judge that, it's in the cheers from the stands. Elliott is a star of the sport, I do believe he needs to get a win once in a while, but Jr went for years without one FWIW. Some fans bemoan that it is that way, but it has been that way for years.

 

[HoneyBadger]

I don't think so, Elliott has tons of fans, this place isn't the place to judge that, it's in the cheers from the stands. Elliott is a star of the sport, I do believe he needs to get a win once in a while, but Jr went for years without one FWIW. Some fans bemoan that it is that way, but it has been that way for years.

That's not what I was saying though. I said the reason people dislike Elliott is because of the hype, not that it's why people like him.

 

[HoneyBadger]

Chase Elliott is the Tony Romo of NASCAR.

 

[sdj]

Dillon looks like a PR person made a caricature of a NASCAR driver, dressed Dillon that way, and sent him out on the track.

I totally disagree with you on Chase Elliott being manufactured, not from what I see and he earned his way into the sport, plus he is humble and very appreciative of the opportunity he has.

Now when it comes to Austin Dillon, you hit it dead on the head "Dillon looks like a PR person made a caricature of a NASCAR driver, dressed Dillon that way, and sent him out on the track." When AD runs up front all race and wins straight up by his ability to do so, without a fuel mileage event or having to wreck somebody, then I might, change my mind, until then, he is just a trust fund kid punk.

 

[StandOnIt]

That's not what I was saying though. I said the reason people dislike Elliott is because of the hype, not that it's why people like him.

I wasn't commenting on your post

 

[StandOnIt]

I totally disagree with you on Chase Elliott being manufactured, not from what I see and he earned his way into the sport, plus he is humble and very appreciative of the opportunity he has.

Now when it comes to Austin Dillon, you hit it dead on the head "Dillon looks like a PR person made a caricature of a NASCAR driver, dressed Dillon that way, and sent him out on the track." When AD runs up front all race and wins straight up by his ability to do so, without a fuel mileage event or having to wreck somebody, then I might, change my mind, until then, he is just a trust fund kid punk.

I wish Dillion was a little bit better than he is, We need another guy to boo IMO. I saw him lined up close on the last restart and thought hope the little geek wins it I need a good boo, but they buried him

 

[Reck]

Ah I love these kind of threads.

I remember once upon a time where there used to be at least 1 thread per week about when Larson was gonna win. And when?

Then a few dozen about Dillion vs Larson. Ah, the good days.

Hendrick Motorsports is just not in the same place where they used to be. They lost something post Gordon---check that even in Gordon's latest years they showed their vulnerability.

Gordon and Jimmie did all the winning so they made the team look even better. That has all been exposed now together with their lack of speed as of the last few years.

EDIT:

Oh yeah, Chase will be just fine.

 

[StandOnIt]

Yeah they weren't setting the world on fire the last three of four year of Gordon racing. I remember the thread Does Gordon care anymore?

 

[jws926]

I don't think so, Elliott has tons of fans, this place isn't the place to judge that, it's in the cheers from the stands. Elliott is a star of the sport, I do believe he needs to get a win once in a while, but Jr went for years without one FWIW. Some fans bemoan that it is that way, but it has been that way for years.

Hype turns people off, it turns me off of things, that is what Andy said, and that is what I was agreeing with, my agreement with Andy had nothing to do with Chase, just hype in general.
Yes, Chase has a ton fans, but star of the sport, I won't go that far yet in my opinion, one day, sure, I can totally see that, but YMMV.

 

[jws926]

I wasn't commenting on your post

But in way you were, because I was replying to him, and you replied to me replying to him, its a circle of replys

 

[StandOnIt]

Hype turns people off, it turns me off of things, that is what Andy said, and that is what I was agreeing with, my agreement with Andy had nothing to do with Chase, just hype in general.
Yes, Chase has a ton fans, but star of the sport, I won't go that far yet in my opinion, one day, sure, I can totally see that, but YMMV.

Who got voted into the All Star race? and who is going to win the most popular driver?

 

[Towmater]

Following the same template you've laid out here, how does Chase fit into this mold that you claim? I'm trying to think of his signature "thing", but all that comes to mind is he's humble and carries himself/sponsors/HMS the right way and acts as a good role model.

The number NINE ring any bells?

Hype turns people off, it turns me off of things, that is what Andy said, and that is what I was agreeing with, my agreement with Andy had nothing to do with Chase, just hype in general.
Yes, Chase has a ton fans, but star of the sport, I won't go that far yet in my opinion, one day, sure, I can totally see that, but YMMV.

He would have to win a few races to become the star of the sport. Larson has eclipsed him as the star of the people that came out of the "names are made here" group.