The Sky Is Falling

Yikes...a simple change of engine to a modern 600 HP turbo v-6 or 4 cylinder would be a step in the right direction. Reduce tire width by 30%. Get rid of the splitter & side skirts. Do what ever aero mods required to get speeds at plate tracks down to 175-180. But none of it will happen. Wonder if the Dodo is interested in sponsoring a dying sport?:partytime

Our coterie of those that whistle past the graveyard are represented on one end of the spectrum and on the other are those that think Nascar is going to vaporize. Both ends are wrong, IMO.
 
Your position is based on the
They are racing to get a return on their investment. If you believe that 1/2 million pre-orders of an electric vehicle by a company with almost no footprint of time in the car industry didn't act as a wake-up call to the US auto industry then I'm at a loss. Do the math on 500000 x $ 30,000.00 and the demographics of the people that want them and you might understand where I coming from.

Ratings tanking, sponsorship dollars in decline, tracks with no technology that younger people seek or not at the levels they expect, the hero's of the sport retiring, and track ticket sales in decline. Yep, I'd sure want to keep my funding at the current level is I was a sponsor/manufacturer. I'm sure Fox and NBC will seek to increase the dollars they bid to televise the sport when the next contract talks start too. Let's keep putting out the same product that keeps that 40 to 60 year old base happy. What could go wrong?

You guys know best. Stay the course and we will see where we end up.

Signed,
The Guy who I found out in this thread doesn't know anything about racing, marketing, business plans, or developing new consumers...LMAO
We agree they race to get a return on investment. Development isn't the only form of ROI.

CNN says there were 17.6 million new cars and trucks sold in the US in 2016. A half-million electrics comes in somewhere around 2.5% of that total. I don't see that as much of a wake-up call. There's plenty the manufacturers could do to bring their race cars in alignment with their consumer inventory without making as radical a change as the propulsion systems.

Your points regarding other factors have merit as far as the sport having audience problems, and I agree with many of them. Those points are not connected with participating manufacturers developing electric race cars. Wasn't that your initial position, that manufacturers that participate in NASCAR should push for electric race cars because that's the coming technology? I keep telling you those brands have never been interested in including current car technologies in their race cars. All they're after is brand loyalty.

Maybe running hardware that has nothing to do with the showroom or latest tech isn't the best way to build or keep an audience, but it's one of the most popular form of motor sports on the planet, ahead of most series with more developmentally advanced hardware. Yes, it can be sluggish to adapt but until someone else demonstrates electric racing attracts an audience (and TV ratings) comparable to what they have now, don't expect the participants to lead the charge. The best you can hope for is that someone will start a US-based electric series. If that turns out to be NASCAR, expect them to leave their name off the brand like they do with IMSA.

If you're going to reply to me, please don't put words in my mouth. I have never said you don't know anything about the subjects you mentioned.
 
We put man on the moon almost 50 years ago as there was a can do/will do attitude for doing what seemed impossible to many. I am always glad for people who don't give up and think outside the box instead of navel gazing.
We put a man on the moon for political reasons. Advancing technology was a fringe benefit. If it could have been done with a B-52, we would never have had Tang.

That political motivation is gone. It's not a coincidence that the US government has done nearly nothing in manned space exploration since the Berlin wall fell. Hopefully the private sector can turn a profit.
 
We put a man on the moon for political reasons. Advancing technology was a fringe benefit. If it could have been done with a B-52, we would never have had Tang.

That political motivation is gone. It's not a coincidence that the US government has done nearly nothing in manned space exploration since the Berlin wall fell. Hopefully the private sector can turn a profit.

No question as without motivation there is no innovation.
 
People fear change. Thus, they seek to lash out at it or run away from it.

True. But I think this is a very premature argument you are trying to make about E Racing. I live in a fairly progressive city/urban area and electric cars are hardly seen, let alone a charging station for them. I've seen like TWO Tesla's driving around and a dozen Volts. We are decades away from this even being considered for NASCAR. Until the general, yes general, like the average worker, can afford one of these 80k cars, nothing will change. This is just my opinion and although I'd love to own a Tesla, it ain't gonna happen in my lifetime.

Until manufacturers can sell the E car (marketing wise) to the average consumer, this may just prove to be a fad for the millennial living in his downtown condo to purchase. Your guy in Middletown, OH isn't buying E cars. I just saw Charlie's post above...those numbers are telling. 2.5% is wimpy to say the least.
 
This is just my opinion and although I'd love to own a Tesla, it ain't gonna happen in my lifetime.
Your post got me interest enough to do a quick search of their prices. I simply have to say, LMFAO No way in hell will I ever own one of these things. It's not a question of adapting to a new technology, it's simply affording it.
 
Your post got me interest enough to do a quick search of their prices. I simply have to say, LMFAO No way in hell will I ever own one of these things. It's not a question of adapting to a new technology, it's simply affording it.
Yep.
 
Racing in general and hockey have the same tv problem.TV just doesn't capture the excitement of being there in person.I used to think hockey was the most boring sport ever,then went to a game and was hooked.
The live experience in hockey has never been captured adequately on TV yet. IMHO, there's nothing better than sitting in the first couple rows of the upper tier of an NHL game. The game is beautiful from that vantage point, whether it's from the center, corners or ends.
 
Ya forgot about the pet rock fad in the mid to late 70s.
Don't forget windsurfing and these:

2392273673_8128b9b12e_b.jpg
 
Scooters are massively popular outside the US.
I had a little Honda 90 back in the 80s --- rode it to work quite frequently because I didn't have to travel a long distance(maybe 20 minutes) and
could stay on neighborhood streets. Loved my little bike.
 
My reply to Kenny is I just turned 44 and b*tch and moan like a 70 year old. Perhaps NASCAR will never again see those days and yes, we can enjoy the races but why not try to figure out what went wrong/? It cannot just be that MILLIONS of people just got hooked on a fad and now they're gone.

the Ego is leading the way. It's a symptom of some to downgrade in order to attempt to build themselves up. Just like in the same vein that Kenny says, if there was an easy answer do you think the powers that be would have been able to figure it out? There isn't one. Never will be..even more importantly a useless waste of time.
 
I had a little Honda 90 back in the 80s --- rode it to work quite frequently because I didn't have to travel a long distance(maybe 20 minutes) and
could stay on neighborhood streets. Loved my little bike.
I had a Honda 90 my first bike, you are right they were nice. The Japanese back in the day would copy bikes and make then tons better. I had a 72 650 Yamaha, copied from a Triumph Model I also owned a 650 Bonneville. No comparison, the Honda might not have nostalgia value, but it was a much better bike in every way but looks.
 
If speeds were reduced the fans would return and racing would be better. The cars are closer on a 55 mph interstate then at a cup track
 
My reply to Kenny is I just turned 44 and b*tch and moan like a 70 year old. Perhaps NASCAR will never again see those days and yes, we can enjoy the races but why not try to figure out what went wrong/? It cannot just be that MILLIONS of people just got hooked on a fad and now they're gone.
Why can't it? It happens regularly. Look at tennis in the '70s and '80s. That's a sport people can actively participate in with relatively cheap equipment costs compared to racing. Courts were being build everywhere; players needed reservations to get on one. Yet its popularity declined.

It's still a strong sport in its own right, just not as popular as it was at its height. That's the pattern I expect NASCAR to follow. I'm with Kenny; it was nice while it lasted, but move on.
 
Why can't it? It happens regularly. Look at tennis in the '70s and '80s. That's a sport people can actively participate in with relatively cheap equipment costs compared to racing. Courts were being build everywhere; players needed reservations to get on one. Yet its popularity declined.

It's still a strong sport in its own right, just not as popular as it was at its height. That's the pattern I expect NASCAR to follow. I'm with Kenny; it was nice while it lasted, but move on.
You're right. My friends and I used to play roller hockey on those tennis courts after tennis experienced it's decline. I suppose that's life.
 
You're right. My friends and I used to play roller hockey on those tennis courts after tennis experienced it's decline. I suppose that's life.
Pro wrestling was all the rage in the mid- and late '80s; wraslers were everywhere. It's still out there, profitable, but you won't find it on one of the big four networks in prime time every week.
 
Your position is based on the

We agree they race to get a return on investment. Development isn't the only form of ROI.

CNN says there were 17.6 million new cars and trucks sold in the US in 2016. A half-million electrics comes in somewhere around 2.5% of that total. I don't see that as much of a wake-up call. There's plenty the manufacturers could do to bring their race cars in alignment with their consumer inventory without making as radical a change as the propulsion systems.

Your points regarding other factors have merit as far as the sport having audience problems, and I agree with many of them. Those points are not connected with participating manufacturers developing electric race cars. Wasn't that your initial position, that manufacturers that participate in NASCAR should push for electric race cars because that's the coming technology? I keep telling you those brands have never been interested in including current car technologies in their race cars. All they're after is brand loyalty.

Maybe running hardware that has nothing to do with the showroom or latest tech isn't the best way to build or keep an audience, but it's one of the most popular form of motor sports on the planet, ahead of most series with more developmentally advanced hardware. Yes, it can be sluggish to adapt but until someone else demonstrates electric racing attracts an audience (and TV ratings) comparable to what they have now, don't expect the participants to lead the charge. The best you can hope for is that someone will start a US-based electric series. If that turns out to be NASCAR, expect them to leave their name off the brand like they do with IMSA.

If you're going to reply to me, please don't put words in my mouth. I have never said you don't know anything about the subjects you mentioned.


Your post seems to indicate that the US auto industry would scoff at 500,000 units sold in a year. Please note that that is 83,000 to 100,000 less units than Subaru sold in the US last year. Subaru has been in the US market for decades. It is a company built on loyalty. It took Subaru decades to position themselves to fill the areas of the car market they own. To have Tesla suddenly pre-sell just 500,000 units is a shock to the industry. Remember that Subaru only sold over 500,000 for the first time less 2 years ago and they are considered a very well run, profitable, healthy car manufacturer in the US.

On your loyalty statement. It is a nice NASCAR selling point. However, if that statement were true then the automakers would shy away from investing in the sport due to it. Why? The amount of people that dislike driver A, or B within the sport would cause people's loyalty of the manufacturers' brands those drivers are associated with to suffer. They wouldn't purchase a Ford, Chevy, or Toyota due to it. Also, they would be fearful of leaving the sport once involved. The blow back would cause all their loyal customers to leave them if they left NASCAR. I must have missed the stories about the massive decline of Dodge's sales numbers after they left the sport. Their sales numbers and market share % of the US have been falling for well over a decade. That includes the time they were in NASCAR. As you have so eloquently posted, the versions of vehicles on the track are nothing like the vehicles found in showrooms. Does anyone walk into a Toyota showroom on a Monday and say I want a Camry like the ones NASCAR has that goes 200+ miles per hour and won that race at _________ yesterday? Heck no, those days ended decades ago too. Who in the world keeps up with the manufacturer's points and cares about who won it? OK, the people in NASCAR and the NASCAR industry, and the people involved for the manufacturers but not many outside that. I hope that you can see that the street in that NASCAR selling point moves both ways.

The points I have been making and have to go back to are that they aren't about 1, 3, 5, 10 years from now. I'm talking about long term market planning that in 10 to 20 years out. Why everyone can't seem to follow that and have their panties in a bunch I can't say?

Oh, and to your last sentence it wasn't aimed at you. We are having a logical back and forth.
 
Until manufacturers can sell the E car (marketing wise) to the average consumer, this may just prove to be a fad for the millennial living in his downtown condo to purchase. Your guy in Middletown, OH isn't buying E cars. I just saw Charlie's post above...those numbers are telling. 2.5% is wimpy to say the least.

Read my last post and you should do some reading on the new Tesla. I'm pretty sure they just produced and started to deliver an E vehicle for the average consumer when you read what the people that do reviews on cars are saying about it in the press.
 
Pro wrestling was all the rage in the mid- and late '80s; wraslers were everywhere. It's still out there, profitable, but you won't find it on one of the big four networks in prime time every week.
You don't find it or NASCAR on ESPN either. Sorry, couldn't resist.
 
True. But I think this is a very premature argument you are trying to make about E Racing. I live in a fairly progressive city/urban area and electric cars are hardly seen, let alone a charging station for them. I've seen like TWO Tesla's driving around and a dozen Volts. We are decades away from this even being considered for NASCAR. Until the general, yes general, like the average worker, can afford one of these 80k cars, nothing will change. This is just my opinion and although I'd love to own a Tesla, it ain't gonna happen in my lifetime.

Until manufacturers can sell the E car (marketing wise) to the average consumer, this may just prove to be a fad for the millennial living in his downtown condo to purchase. Your guy in Middletown, OH isn't buying E cars. I just saw Charlie's post above...those numbers are telling. 2.5% is wimpy to say the least.

Bro, the new Tesla cost between 30K and 50K. Ford F150's are in that price range. Yes, not the same buyer but I hope you get my point about cost.
 
Bro, the new Tesla cost between 30K and 50K. Ford F150's are in that price range. Yes, not the same buyer but I hope you get my point about cost.
Elon Musk is a bi-polar GENIUS. The man is literally changing the world and I shake my head because there is NO REASON that Ford, GM or Chrysler could not have done this.
 
I'm waiting to buy the Tesla pick up. :confused: Every house, all seven of them on my mile long road have pickups and multi acre chunks of land. If you live in a city, it is very easy to have a misshapen outlook of not only the future but also what most people who don't live in the city use their vehicles for. We have more cows than people in Oklahoma. Large open spaces and many miles between them. Cell phones are a joke in some places..they don't work where I live
 
Everything you look at in your house, your work has been delivered on a truck. Think about that in your future plans.
 
Your post seems to indicate that the US auto industry would scoff at 500,000 units sold in a year. Please note that that is 83,000 to 100,000 less units than Subaru sold in the US last year. Subaru has been in the US market for decades. It is a company built on loyalty. It took Subaru decades to position themselves to fill the areas of the car market they own. To have Tesla suddenly pre-sell just 500,000 units is a shock to the industry. Remember that Subaru only sold over 500,000 for the first time less 2 years ago and they are considered a very well run, profitable, healthy car manufacturer in the US.

On your loyalty statement. It is a nice NASCAR selling point. However, if that statement were true then the automakers would shy away from investing in the sport due to it. Why? The amount of people that dislike driver A, or B within the sport would cause people's loyalty of the manufacturers' brands those drivers are associated with to suffer. They wouldn't purchase a Ford, Chevy, or Toyota due to it. Also, they would be fearful of leaving the sport once involved. The blow back would cause all their loyal customers to leave them if they left NASCAR. I must have missed the stories about the massive decline of Dodge's sales numbers after they left the sport. Their sales numbers and market share % of the US have been falling for well over a decade. That includes the time they were in NASCAR. As you have so eloquently posted, the versions of vehicles on the track are nothing like the vehicles found in showrooms. Does anyone walk into a Toyota showroom on a Monday and say I want a Camry like the ones NASCAR has that goes 200+ miles per hour and won that race at _________ yesterday? Heck no, those days ended decades ago too. Who in the world keeps up with the manufacturer's points and cares about who won it? OK, the people in NASCAR and the NASCAR industry, and the people involved for the manufacturers but not many outside that. I hope that you can see that the street in that NASCAR selling point moves both ways.

The points I have been making and have to go back to are that they aren't about 1, 3, 5, 10 years from now. I'm talking about long term market planning that in 10 to 20 years out. Why everyone can't seem to follow that and have their panties in a bunch I can't say?

Oh, and to your last sentence it wasn't aimed at you. We are having a logical back and forth.
Re: Subaru - you can be a healthy, profitable well run company if you can find a niche to target, but it's still a niche. You don't see motor sports manufacturers building full-time AWD for the race track, and by your own numbers that a relatively larger market share than electrics. That technology does show up in other forms of racing, but those forms are as niche as Subaru. But then, based on sales numbers, the Truck series should be more popular than the sedan-based Cup series. Go figure.

Yes, sometimes a driver's personality drives part of the fan base away. That's part of any form of racing. Chevy certainly wasn't bothered by all those Earnhardt haters back in the '80s and '90s. Apparently they felt those who were attracted outnumbered those who were repelled. I do know that building brand recognition is the primary reason they're in NASCAR. Whether it's effective is up to the marketing gurus to measure. Chevy seems to think the grass is pretty green over in IndyCar, a form of racing that has even less to do with their production models. Ford has been quite successful on the track with its sophomore year in IMSA; that's a series that ties more closely to the showroom than NASCAR, and has more appeal for the performance fans / gearheads.

My point is that the manufacturers in NASCAR aren't in it for the R&D, despite all those 'TRD' logos out there. Ford, Chevy, and Toyota ARE working on long-term electric car development. They're not using stock car racing as part of it, but they have've used it for development in decades. I don't understand why you want the manufacturers to tie the two (e-car R&D and racing) together, and why you think NASCAR is the appropriate venue.

You don't find it or NASCAR on ESPN either. Sorry, couldn't resist.
NJJammer is the one who said NASCAR couldn't be a fad. not me. I pointed out tennis and wrestling because I do think NASCAR is following a similar trend, but that doesn't mean the sport is going to disappear entirely as some are screaming. Like Subaru, it can be profitable and successful with a small, dedicated audience, just not at the boom level of 15 years ago.

Bro, the new Tesla cost between 30K and 50K. Ford F150's are in that price range. Yes, not the same buyer but I hope you get my point about cost.
Frankly, I don't get the obsession with trucks among the US vehicle buyers. I'm not a marketing VP but darned if I don't think most of them are bought more for the ego appeal than for any practical reason. Most of the ones I've seen appear to have never carried a piece of unfinished lumber or set a tire off the pavement. Me, I'm too cheap to fuel and insure a bunch of capability I won't use very often.

I don't plan on spending over 30K+ next year when I get a new vehicle, so it won't be a truck and likely not a Tesla either. Just me, I guess; I'm a cheap sumbich.
 
Oklahoma has more waterfront miles than all the East coast, and back around Florida. Many of the toy trucks I call them pull jet skis and boats. I haul firewood, pull utility trailers and feed in mine and until a pole decided to rub me the wrong way it was slick. I'm sure plenty don't haul much. years ago Chevys surburban had over 75% of it's total sales in Texas. Electric stuff will work in urban areas, but they have a very long way to go anywhere else.
 
Frankly, I don't get the obsession with trucks among the US vehicle buyers. I'm not a marketing VP but darned if I don't think most of them are bought more for the ego appeal than for any practical reason. Most of the ones I've seen appear to have never carried a piece of unfinished lumber or set a tire off the pavement.
I don't get the obsession with those huge, 4-door trucks. I have a 1999 Ford Ranger with 195K on it. A little beat up from use, but perfectly serviceable.
As for those behemoth 4X4s that used to run over me in Houston, I doubt any of them were ever more off-road than the drive-through.
To be fair though, here in Central Texas, a large number of them are used quite heavily on the ranches---those are working trucks.
 
Your post got me interest enough to do a quick search of their prices. I simply have to say, LMFAO No way in hell will I ever own one of these things. It's not a question of adapting to a new technology, it's simply affording it.
One reason I wouldn't buy a new electric car right now....they depreciate horribly. For example, the Nissan Leaf sells for about $35K new, Autotrader is full of low mileage two year old models selling for around $10K. I know there are lots of tax breaks that come with buying a new one, but I don't think they're anywhere close to offsetting that depreciation.
 
I don't get the obsession with those huge, 4-door trucks. I have a 1999 Ford Ranger with 195K on it. A little beat up from use, but perfectly serviceable.
As for those behemoth 4X4s that used to run over me in Houston, I doubt any of them were ever more off-road than the drive-through.
To be fair though, here in Central Texas, a large number of them are used quite heavily on the ranches---those are working trucks.
There are plenty of working trucks out there, to be sure, but sales of working trucks alone wouldn't carry trucks to the overall largest share of the US vehicle market.
 
One reason I wouldn't buy a new electric car right now....they depreciate horribly. For example, the Nissan Leaf sells for about $35K new, Autotrader is full of low mileage two year old models selling for around $10K. I know there are lots of tax breaks that come with buying a new one, but I don't think they're anywhere close to offsetting that depreciation.
spoken like a true accountant ;)
 
I don't get the obsession with those huge, 4-door trucks. I have a 1999 Ford Ranger with 195K on it. A little beat up from use, but perfectly serviceable.
As for those behemoth 4X4s that used to run over me in Houston, I doubt any of them were ever more off-road than the drive-through.
To be fair though, here in Central Texas, a large number of them are used quite heavily on the ranches---those are working trucks.
I own a GMC 2500 HD Diesel 4x4. 4dr. A 4x4 for the winter weather and not off roading. It's main purpose is recreational. I tow my 5er with it and I also use it as a work truck for heavy hauling. What kind of electric vehicle is going to be compatable to that?
 
One reason I wouldn't buy a new electric car right now....they depreciate horribly. For example, the Nissan Leaf sells for about $35K new, Autotrader is full of low mileage two year old models selling for around $10K. I know there are lots of tax breaks that come with buying a new one, but I don't think they're anywhere close to offsetting that depreciation.
Maybe they're buying for the long haul. I plan on driving any vehicle I buy until it dies; reliability matters far more to me than depreciation. If it isn't still running effectively after 10 years, I bought a piece of junk.
 
I don't get the obsession with those huge, 4-door trucks. I have a 1999 Ford Ranger with 195K on it. A little beat up from use, but perfectly serviceable.
As for those behemoth 4X4s that used to run over me in Houston, I doubt any of them were ever more off-road than the drive-through.
To be fair though, here in Central Texas, a large number of them are used quite heavily on the ranches---those are working trucks.

I had one all jacked up with big mudders and KC high lights and roll bared up when I was a kid. took me four days one time to get it unstuck down on the Arkansas river. 8 MPG liked to broke me:D Ah older and wiser now.
 


"Older people 60-75 always go into a state of depression. It's just natural progression in life. They always point out the negative things."

I never suspected Kenny of being the sharpest turnip on the wagon but the above absolute statement affirms it. So people are OK up until 60 and then go into a state of depression for 15 years and then something else happens afterward I guess.

Of course there are probably more Nascar fans in the 60-75 age range than in the 18-34 group so maybe Kenny is on to something.
 
Did you happen to see the episode of Jay Leno's Garage where they were trying to drift with Nissan Leafs (or Leaves)? It was pretty hilarious.
I suspect few in the E-car market are interested in drifting, but what do I know? I'm not interested in it, and I'm not even in the E-car market.

Drifting is an activity invented to increase tire sales. :D
 
I had a Honda 90 my first bike, you are right they were nice. The Japanese back in the day would copy bikes and make then tons better. I had a 72 650 Yamaha, copied from a Triumph Model I also owned a 650 Bonneville. No comparison, the Honda might not have nostalgia value, but it was a much better bike in every way but looks.

Ah yes....the Japanese........I used to have a friend who was Japanese.
 
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