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'21 Generation 7 Car news

StandOnIt

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I heard there's a bidding war between Dallara and Gibbs to build the Next Gen Chassis.

I'd rather Dallara win it, as if Gibbs wins it, there will be a conflict of interest. If Dallara wins it, everyone will basically be guaranteed the same chassis., but if Gibbs wins it, what's to stop them from giving other teams inferior chassis, because they are the competition after all
I agree but I wouldn't say there is a dramatical bidding war or even taking bids for that matter. So far Nascar hasn't awarded anything to anybody to my knowledge.
 

SpeedPagan

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I heard there's a bidding war between Dallara and Gibbs to build the Next Gen Chassis.

I'd rather Dallara win it, as if Gibbs wins it, there will be a conflict of interest. If Dallara wins it, everyone will basically be guaranteed the same chassis., but if Gibbs wins it, what's to stop them from giving other teams inferior chassis, because they are the competition after all
Yea, I'm with you, I'd rather a neutral outside 3rd party provide the chassis rather than one of the race teams. We've already seen how Joe Gibbs ****** over Furniture Row Racing, we don't need them to **** over every other team in the series.
 

Charlie Spencer

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A neutral third party would eliminate the question of an existing team favoring itself. Regardless of which team that might be, just taking the possibility out of the hands of the Tin Foil Brigade is reason enough.
 

StandOnIt

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They didn't have any problem finding an outside vendor for the spec motor's in the truck series, I don't know why they wouldn't have the same results with other parts and pieces. Seems like most of the journalism is throwing stuff against the walls to see if it sticks. I know the suspense is killing some, but I really don't think Nascar has much of a solid plan going on right now. They are using an off the shelf transaxle from the SuperCars, probably a composite body from 5 star and a chassis built by RCR and it is probably a descendant from the COT as is the Gen 6 chassis.. Probably tires and wheels from the IMSA series.
 

jws926

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I heard there's a bidding war between Dallara and Gibbs to build the Next Gen Chassis.

I'd rather Dallara win it, as if Gibbs wins it, there will be a conflict of interest. If Dallara wins it, everyone will basically be guaranteed the same chassis., but if Gibbs wins it, what's to stop them from giving other teams inferior chassis, because they are the competition after all
NASCAR can stop them, all completed chassis go to NASCAR and then NASCAR hands them out, including JGR's .

Its probably best that no team builds the new chassis, just to keep things above board if you will.
 

DewChaser988

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NASCAR can stop them, all completed chassis go to NASCAR and then NASCAR hands them out, including JGR's .

Its probably best that no team builds the new chassis, just to keep things above board if you will.
Which is where Dallara comes in, even then Dallara are far from novices when it comes to building race cars. There's a reason why Dallara won IndyCar's ICONIC project over the DeltaWing, Swift, and LOLA's entry you know.
 

StandOnIt

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NASCAR can stop them, all completed chassis go to NASCAR and then NASCAR hands them out, including JGR's .

Its probably best that no team builds the new chassis, just to keep things above board if you will.
Yeah it is possible for that to work, keep the work within the industry, even have multiple organizations build chassis. I would like to see a start up do it in the Charlotte area. There are going to be plenty of skilled chassis builders that are going to be looking for a job.
 

aunty dive

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How many new chassis will be required to get the season up and running?
 

wi_racefan

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Yeah it is possible for that to work, keep the work within the industry, even have multiple organizations build chassis. I would like to see a start up do it in the Charlotte area. There are going to be plenty of skilled chassis builders that are going to be looking for a job.
I guess I'd have to say the opposite. I'd like to see it made by an independent 3rd party but IMO it has to be an established organization in the racing industry. I don't want to put the trust of my top level racing series in the hands of a startup company. They might build a product that meets all the needs, but putting a product out the door is a small part of the whole business. What if this new startup is run poorly and goes bankrupt in a year or two? The does the sanctioning body have to buy it to keep the series going?

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DewChaser988

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I guess I'd have to say the opposite. I'd like to see it made by an independent 3rd party but IMO it has to be an established organization in the racing industry. I don't want to put the trust of my top level racing series in the hands of a startup company. They might build a product that meets all the needs, but putting a product out the door is a small part of the whole business. What if this new startup is run poorly and goes bankrupt in a year or two? The does the sanctioning body have to buy it to keep the series going?

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Established organization. Dallara says hi
 

aunty dive

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couple hundred
At least.

Super speedway primary / backup cars for a 36 entries - 72. Same for Intermediate, short track - 154 more and better get busy on the road course variants, stuff for the unchartered, more stuff to replace stuff that gets crashed and after Daytona, some way to do 9 front clips, 6 rear clips and a couple of front / rear clip combos before Talladega in 2 months. Better get those done early so they can be re-certified, re-bodied and re-inspected so the hauler drivers can get them to the $ 1800/hour wind tunnel for a quick half day shakedown.

Dallara or another independent builder would require a facility in the Mooresville area ( where NASCAR chassis certifications are performed) big enough to house a minimum of a dozen chassis fixtures, MIG welders, TIG welders, bottled gas storage, steel inventory, offices, employee facilities, etc., etc.

The manufacturing facilities are already in place ... all over town ... staffed by experienced people most of whom are infused with enthusiasm and loyalty to team.

Given sufficient time, professional auto racing will become an expensive form of adult T-Ball.

Just my opinion, of course.
 
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jws926

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Which is where Dallara comes in, even then Dallara are far from novices when it comes to building race cars. There's a reason why Dallara won IndyCar's ICONIC project over the DeltaWing, Swift, and LOLA's entry you know.
I am not disagreeing that a outside company should be the primary builder, I was just saying that are things NASCAR could do if a team(s) were to be the one's doing the building.
 

jws926

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Yeah it is possible for that to work, keep the work within the industry, even have multiple organizations build chassis. I would like to see a start up do it in the Charlotte area. There are going to be plenty of skilled chassis builders that are going to be looking for a job.
Yes, no doubt there are lot of guys that would like to still have jobs by keeping it within industry.

The most important part that everyone gets equal chassis .
 

Charlie Spencer

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I would like to see a start up do it in the Charlotte area. There are going to be plenty of skilled chassis builders that are going to be looking for a job.
Wouldn't Dallara have to hire people? I find it hard to believe they have enough people already on hand to start cranking out chassis for a series that runs more cars per race, and more races per season, than most other series. Those people will have to come from somewhere; existing NASCAR chassis shops would seem the logical place. There wouldn't be enough slots for everyone but wouldn't there be openings for a majority?
 

StandOnIt

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Wouldn't Dallara have to hire people? I find it hard to believe they have enough people already on hand to start cranking out chassis for a series that runs more cars per race, and more races per season, than most other series. Those people will have to come from somewhere; existing NASCAR chassis shops would seem the logical place. There wouldn't be enough slots for everyone but wouldn't there be openings for a majority?
yep as has been said when I brought it up, doesn't matter who, in my case I called it a start up company in the Charlotte area makes the most sense. How many chassis builders want to re locate to Indianapolis where Dallara is located when they could stay in the Charlotte area with families, schools etc. There aren't any rules about how many manufacturers can be used to produce the frames. It's an assembly, it's built to the blue print spec, it will be inspected by quality control guys. A number of dirt sprint car chassis builders have been building frames for whomever for years. There isn't any reason why Nascar frames are any different.
 

KTMLew01

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At least.

Super speedway primary / backup cars for a 36 entries - 72. Same for Intermediate, short track - 154 more and better get busy on the road course variants, stuff for the unchartered, more stuff to replace stuff that gets crashed and after Daytona, some way to do 9 front clips, 6 rear clips and a couple of front / rear clip combos before Talladega in 2 months. Better get those done early so they can be re-certified, re-bodied and re-inspected so the hauler drivers can get them to the $ 1800/hour wind tunnel for a quick half day shakedown.

Dallara or another independent builder would require a facility in the Mooresville area ( where NASCAR chassis certifications are performed) big enough to house a minimum of a dozen chassis fixtures, MIG welders, TIG welders, bottled gas storage, steel inventory, offices, employee facilities, etc., etc.

The manufacturing facilities are already in place ... all over town ... staffed by experienced people most of whom are infused with enthusiasm and loyalty to team.

Given sufficient time, professional auto racing will become an expensive form of adult T-Ball.

Just my opinion, of course.
It isn't still 1950 Boomer...:D:D:D
 

jws926

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Wouldn't Dallara have to hire people? I find it hard to believe they have enough people already on hand to start cranking out chassis for a series that runs more cars per race, and more races per season, than most other series. Those people will have to come from somewhere; existing NASCAR chassis shops would seem the logical place. There wouldn't be enough slots for everyone but wouldn't there be openings for a majority?
Whomever does it I think will have to hire people.
 

wi_racefan

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I wonder if the sanctioning body will still limit the number of chassis for each team with a spec chassis.

Also a person has to wonder how much is considered a spec chassis? Is it a rolling chassis or are teams still given some freedoms as far as mounting suspension components?

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StandOnIt

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I wonder if the sanctioning body will still limit the number of chassis for each team with a spec chassis.

Also a person has to wonder how much is considered a spec chassis? Is it a rolling chassis or are teams still given some freedoms as far as mounting suspension components?

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Reading what Penske said months ago, the suspension components are where the costs are out of sight. A frame is a frame, but different spindles, shocks and uprights for almost every track setup is probably pretty pricey.
 

Formerjackman

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Reading what Penske said months ago, the suspension components are where the costs are out of sight. A frame is a frame, but different spindles, shocks and uprights for almost every track setup is probably pretty pricey.
I always have to chuckle a little bit when a guy like Roger Penske complains about the costs of the cars. He is one of five or six people primarily responsible for it in the first place, just as he has been in pretty much EVERY racing series he has ever participated in, going back to his quasi-legal Grand Sport Corvette and his totally cheated up Camaros in Trans Am in the 1960's. I'm not knocking the guy for doing it, if I were in his position I likely would have done the same thing, but it seems a little crass now to try to get the sanctioning body to step in a save Roger, Rick, Jack, Joe and Richard from the very hell they themselves created.
 

StandOnIt

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I always have to chuckle a little bit when a guy like Roger Penske complains about the costs of the cars. He is one of five or six people primarily responsible for it in the first place, just as he has been in pretty much EVERY racing series he has ever participated in, going back to his quasi-legal Grand Sport Corvette and his totally cheated up Camaros in Trans Am in the 1960's. I'm not knocking the guy for doing it, if I were in his position I likely would have done the same thing, but it seems a little crass now to try to get the sanctioning body to step in a save Roger, Rick, Jack, Joe and Richard from the very hell they themselves created.
Not at all. It takes strong sanctioning body leadership to contain costs and Nascar has had a give a sheet numb nutz at the helm for years. Didn't take long for Jim France to get a handle on it.
 

wi_racefan

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Reading what Penske said months ago, the suspension components are where the costs are out of sight. A frame is a frame, but different spindles, shocks and uprights for almost every track setup is probably pretty pricey.
I would think the suspension is the expensive part, but it you have a spec chassis with suspension and a flange fit body what freedoms have you still allowed the teams? At that point you're getting dangerously close to spec racing

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StandOnIt

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I would think the suspension is the expensive part, but it you have a spec chassis with suspension and a flange fit body what freedoms have you still allowed the teams? At that point you're getting dangerously close to spec racing

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Motors are OEM, drivers, pit strategy, car setups, race adjustments. The average fan doesn't know there is a 10 thousand dollar suspension upright on the car or a 4 thousand dollar driveshaft, or shocks that can cost thousands for a set.
 

Formerjackman

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Not at all. It takes strong sanctioning body leadership to contain costs and Nascar has had a give a sheet numb nutz at the helm for years. Didn't take long for Jim France to get a handle on it.
Costs were spiraling out of control from the mid 90's on even WITH very strong leadership from Bill France Jr. The only thing that saved them (and clouded their judgement) for next 10-15 years was that the growth of the sport sort of kept pace with the spending spree. When the music stopped, Roger and the gang were sort of left holding the bag, and and now they need Jim to save them from themselves. Had the NASCAR juggernaut not jumped off the rails, we might be looking at Formula One numbers to field Cup cars by now. What has to be done has to be done, but I wish these guys were a little more forthcoming about how we got to were we are are and their role in it.
 

Formerjackman

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I agree with your most excellent 20 20 hindsight view, but the OX is in the ditch today.
It IS in the ditch, and I understand how we got to this point. I just wish the people MOST responsible would step up and admit their own culpability in the mess. Small point, but for some silly reason it makes a difference to me.
 

SpeedPagan

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To be fair, expensive specialized racing parts were a thing in NASCAR before Joe Gibbs, Rick Hendrick and the others entered into the NASCAR garage. Money will always buy you speed, the more you spend, the faster you go. It's mostly because there's always going to be people who opens up the rule book before the season begins and go over it with a fine tooth comb, looking for any advantage or gray area that they can exploit. It's the nature of competitive auto racing.
 

Formerjackman

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True, but it was with these guys that the arms race reached a fevered pitch. Go back to late 80's, and even early 90's. Teams didn't build their own chassis, the only car likely to see a wind tunnel was your Daytona 500 car, shocks were used out of the box, there were few if any chassis dynos, no 7 post rigs, no hired gun pit crews, and you would have to look awfully hard to find an engineer on ANYBODY'S team roster. When Rusty Wallace won the title in 1989, I think there was less than 30 people in the entire organization, the engine shop was about five people, and they did everything by hand, no CNC machines. The last count I heard for HMS was around 100 people in the engine shop and somewhere between 500 and 600 people in the organization total. Junior Johnson won six Cup titles with a couple rows of basically home garages in his back yard. Penske is based in a former factory and Hendrick has his own industrial park. You can't blame Brian France or even NASCAR as an organization for all of that.
 

Formerjackman

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And then it eats itself alive and has to start over. Nothing is ever learned long term.
 
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