23XI statement on not signing Charter agreement

rd45usa said:
Easy answer when you don't want to commit perjury.
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Its an easy answer when you dont know the exact answer. If you speculate and say "I believe" or "I think" then they can call into question anything further that doesn't match what you speculated on.
 
I still haven't seen anything that shows what nascar is giving the teams isn't enough to operate. Just teams are choosing to spend more than that. There are so many things that they spend money on that nascar doesnt require them to do. So you spent 6 million on simulation last year? Huh I don't see anywhere that we require teams to do that? You spent several million on a pit crew training facility....nope don't see anywhere that we require that as well.

FRM says they operate at 14 million a year. How much do they pay penske for an alliance? Oh wait they're not required to do that either.

Now the argument of the exclusivity of tracks seems like it could go either way to me.
 
wi_racefan said:
I don't see anything wrong with saying were not going to give you a ton of money to race in our series if you own and operate another competing series.
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Here's a question; we keep hearing about midweek races. Clearly the teams want to do it and NASCAR is the obstacle. So why do I as a fan want this situation where the teams race less?
 
wi_racefan said:
I don't see anything wrong with saying were not going to give you a ton of money to race in our series if you own and operate another
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wi_racefan said:
I don't see anything wrong with saying were not going to give you a ton of money to race in our series if you own and operate another competing series.
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Using the same logic, then why would that not apply to the owners that have a business outside of Nascar?
 
Seems the judge is going to do his best to wrap this thing up this week. Lord knows the jurors are hoping to as well. My knee jerk reaction from I what I have heard and read, its not going good for NASCAR. They seem to be the bully in the room , and who likes a bully?
 
The charter system was put in place mainly to give teams a guaranteed starting spot so they could sell that to sponsors who wanted to invest in the team. An ancillary purpose was to get rid of field fillers and the numerous start and parks because of a performance clause was in the original charters also. .
Here comes a wealthy stick n baller who Hamlin brought in who dumps a ton of money into his teams, building etc. He looks at how much he is not making one day and somebody, who knows who comes up with the idea of franchises, just like stick n ball. So here we are.
 
I’m reluctant to speculate on how this trial is playing out, because I’m not there. Reporters are putting their 2 cents in…maybe it’s a good reflection of the testimony, but the defense hasn’t presented their witnesses yet. If anyone loses this for NASCAR it will be Jim France. His resistance to making some reasonable concessions to the team owners earlier might come back to bite him.

However, the standard required for getting a unanimous verdict in this case is a pretty tall order.
 
Hotrod said:
Seems the judge is going to do his best to wrap this thing up this week. Lord knows the jurors are hoping to as well. My knee jerk reaction from I what I have heard and read, its not going good for NASCAR. They seem to be the bully in the room , and who likes a bully?
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Its not looking good for nascar right now because for the most part they havent argued their side of the case. Things always look different until you hear both sides.
 
Conover said:
I’m reluctant to speculate on how this trial is playing out, because I’m not there. Reporters are putting their 2 cents in…maybe it’s a good reflection of the testimony, but the defense hasn’t presented their witnesses yet. If anyone loses this for NASCAR it will be Jim France. His resistance to making some reasonable concessions to the team owners earlier might come back to bite him.

However, the standard required for getting a unanimous verdict in this case is a pretty tall order.
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A permanent charter is nothing but a franchise. Pretty sure that is why it is called a charter because it never was going to be a permanent thing, never meant to be a franchise. Talk about locking people out of the sport? The nut a new team owner would have to come up to buy a Nascar franchise? Investor groups would be about the only ones who could do it.
 
An X posting I copied pieces of, regarding the plantiff’s “expert” witness who claims to have calculated the damages due to the cabal:

“Economist Edward Snyder contends that the NASCAR series owes 23XI Racing and Front Row Motorsports a staggering $364.7 million in damages from 2021 to 2024. Snyder, a former dean at Yale and University of Chicago, argued NASCAR's 25% revenue share to teams—compared to Formula 1's 45%—is monopolistic and anticompetitive, shortchanging teams by $1.06 billion overall. He claimed NASCAR could pay $300 million more annually per team without bankruptcy risk, using internal documents to highlight exclusivity clauses on tracks and cars that stifle competition. Co-owned by Michael Jordan and Denny Hamlin, 23XI seeks $215.8 million, while Front Row wants $148.9 million.”

First and foremost, comparing the Formula 1 business structure, payout percentages and economic model to NASCAR is idiotic and spurious, especially from a YALE man. Completely different series, media deals, tracks, sponsorship platforms, etc. To contend NASCAR can pay out an extra $300 MILLION DOLLARS PER TEAM without bankruptcy risk is absolutely insane (I actually think this number is the total sum of all chartered teams annually, about an extra $10M per team). Not sure if the error is the “expert” or the breathless blip posting it on X. Regardless, NONE of that proves monopolistic or anticompetitive behavior. Even if it is POSSIBLE to pay more money to the teams, it’s not a decision that should render DAMAGES OF $364 MILLION!

This is the shock value pitch play the cabal did to rattle these common folk jurors. Same play they use when “chasing ambulances”. Exaggerate the potential damages to an astronomical amount, with some sad suffering on top.
 
StandOnIt said:
A permanent charter is nothing but a franchise. Pretty sure that is why it is called a charter because it never was going to be a permanent thing, never meant to be a franchise. Talk about locking people out of the sport? The nut a new team owner would have to come up to buy a Nascar franchise? Investor groups would be about the only ones who could do it.
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The charter stuff is already accomplishing the negative aspects of what a franchise system would accomplish.

The notion that someone could pay $40 million to buy a charter and then NASCAR could simply take that away tomorrow shouldn't sit right with anybody. And 23XI doesn't have a charter now because they didn't agree to a system that didn't guarantee that be permanent.

This is on par with the bull**** where the WNBA isn't letting the people who bought the Sun franchise move it to Boston because they want a team in Cleveland.

This is on par with the nonsense where you can buy a movie on your TV but it can be deleted off your TV by the studio without any refund.

It's just bull****.
 
StandOnIt said:
The Earnhardt's couldn't stand it, jumped right in the middle of it.
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On the postseason part ... it's wild to me that NASCAR is committed to the postseason.

This whole trial is a PR disaster for NASCAR and they could easily win back some good faith points with their fans by dumping the playoffs and aren't even gonna do that.

Jim France has somehow been a bigger disaster than Brian France.
 
HoneyBadger said:
On the postseason part ... it's wild to me that NASCAR is committed to the postseason.

This whole trial is a PR disaster for NASCAR and they could easily win back some good faith points with their fans by dumping the playoffs and aren't even gonna do that.

Jim France has somehow been a bigger disaster than Brian France.
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Wouldn't it be funny if BF has been running the show behind the curtain this whole time. He was put on indefinite suspension with pay. JF was put in place to be a post turtle. 😂😂
 
If the news story I read (with quotes) is accurate, the testimony yesterday from the NASCAR side was EXTREMELY unimpressive. If they think that performance is going to win over jurors, they may get a rude awakening.
 
The problem with permanent charters is you continue to hand power away. Eventually you hand enough power away you get pushed out of your own business.

The name Carl Keikhaefer ring a bell with anyone? Yeah his drivers won back to back nascar championships in the 50's. He was also the founder of Mercury boat motors, well eventually his power was given away until he was fired from his own company.
 
wi_racefan said:
The problem with permanent charters is you continue to hand power away. Eventually you hand enough power away you get pushed out of your own business.

The name Carl Keikhaefer ring a bell with anyone? Yeah his drivers won back to back nascar championships in the 50's. He was also the founder of Mercury boat motors, well eventually his power was given away until he was fired from his own company.
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Keikhaefer lost his business because he sold controlling shares in it to another firm (Brunswick). None of that is happening here. How are the teams going to push out someone when they have no controlling shares? Sorry, but this reads like you have no idea what you're talking about and you're conflating this scenario with something totally different.
 
virtualbalboa said:
Keikhaefer lost his business because he sold controlling shares in it to another firm (Brunswick). None of that is happening here. How are the teams going to push out someone when they have no controlling shares? Sorry, but this reads like you have no idea what you're talking about and you're conflating this scenario with something totally different.
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So you disagree that owners have been given more and more say in how things are now run than 20 years ago? I can see where Nascar is coming from. Once you make them permanent you have to bend to the team owners because now you've made a contract that you have to allow them to race. Agree or disagree, but thats where the erosion of power begins.
 
Rick Hendrick’s letter to Jim France (referenced from the X post) was well written, earnest, and did the best job expressing the frustrations teams were having with their financial results within the sport. His logic on establishing permanent charters is eloquent, but ultimately comes from the same place as all these do; instant equity which equals big money.

Permanent charters granted without payment is a big shot of instant equity for the original charter teams like HMS, JGR, etc. It would also put millions of equity dollars back on the ledger for those teams that purchased charter rights from the lucky owners who cashed out while they could.

While I’ve advocated for payments to NASCAR if permanent charters were granted by the court, I don’t see this judge going there. Hell, at this point Jim France is fumbling and bumbling his way into oncoming traffic. His handling of the negotiations was clearly a detriment to the process. But Polk, Jordan, Hamcrap and Jenkins are crapping this bed as well…pushing for massive “damages” that could render this sport totally broken.

NASCAR SHOULD HAVE COMPLETED THE SETTLEMENT DURING TALKS PRIOR TO TRIAL. It appeared those would have resulted in “evergreen” charters and payment of the plantiff’s legal fees. Maybe they wanted something else, but that would be a reasonable outcome at this point. Should the jury find unanimously for the cabal, the actual terms of the verdict remain with the judge, who I don’t trust. Still, his decisions would impact everything going forward, so one would hope he’d see fit to resolve these along more reasonable terms (à la the settlement) verses handing a back breaking monetary award to filthy rich Jordan.
 
Conover said:
NASCAR SHOULD HAVE COMPLETED THE SETTLEMENT DURING TALKS PRIOR TO TRIAL. It appeared those would have resulted in “evergreen” charters and payment of the plantiff’s legal fees.
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I can't think of any reason that nascar should have paid the legal fees of the person suing them.

If thats what it really came down to then same on the plaintiffs for not taking the deal
 
wi_racefan said:
So you disagree that owners have been given more and more say in how things are now run than 20 years ago?
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Are you claiming this is representative of ownership in the series? Yesterday Jim France testified that the series is owned by two entities: the France Family Trust and the Betty Jane France Descendants Trust. That's who owns NASCAR.

I have more say in what happens for my role than I did when I was three levels below this. That doesn't mean I own Michigan State University.

wi_racefan said:
I can see where Nascar is coming from. Once you make them permanent you have to bend to the team owners because now you've made a contract that you have to allow them to race. Agree or disagree, but thats where the erosion of power begins.
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"Bend to the team owners" in what way that is negative to you or I?
 
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