All-Star race experimentation receives mostly high marks

StandOnIt said:
not really, in the article they said they are trying to shoot for 8,000 rpm with the spacer and the gearing, good sweet spot for a V8
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Sooo, way short gearing to make up for the lack of torque which then results in an extremely low top speed because they are pegged out at 8k?
 
StandOnIt said:
I'm too busy laughing. took ya what, two or three posts to twist the thread away from the topic.
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The topic is why is NASCAR thinking about using the Charlotte package, I stayed on it, if you can't answer a simple question, why would they consider it ...maybe you really don't know as much as you think you do about NASCAR.
 
DUN24 said:
Sooo, way short gearing to make up for the lack of torque which then results in an extremely low top speed because they are pegged out at 8k?
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I would guess it would be exactly the opposite. They are talking about a different ECU. I read it wrong they are trying to limit the Engine to 8500 instead of 8000
 
AdoubleU24 said:
The only thing we can do guys is don't watch, don't buy merchandise, and don't buy tickets. Unfortunately I love the sport so much that I don't know if I'm capable of doing any of those things, but that's the reality. If they go this route and make these drastic changes, it could take years to undo it. If it flops, they aren't going to scrap it, they'll further tweak it.

If I wanted 550hp I'd go buy myself a Charger SRT and let it rip.
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I didn't watch or attend for two years even though I still bought seats. The stages pissed me off and still do. It felt like I didn't miss anything. Then I went to ACS in March and realized that I do miss the racing a bit but that I missed hanging out with my family and friends even more. So, I'll be back at the racetrack and I'll hang out and BBQ and party with my peeps. I still don't like the stages, playoffs or elimination. I won't watch once the "playoffs" begin. We changed our LVMS date from March to September this year and that will be the only playoff/chase/elimination race that I will see.
I still like stock cars going around in circles but I really have no interest in the end of the season, who they crown champion or the banquet. I haven't watched the banquet in probably 10 years.
And...I especially don't like the constant meddling and changes. What motorsports enthusiast would ever support less HP? o_O
 
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Spotter22 said:
Funny how the 18, the 4, the 78, the 14 etc... can all come from the back and pass people while in dirty air. Thats racin
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Yep. Been that way with this gen 6. Even JJ has said that it seems every year there are a couple of teams that figure out how to pass and everyone else struggles.
Spotter22 said:
Those that missed the AllStar race wont be running upfront with the leaders.
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Dont have to be running near the front to cause a mess.
 
DUN24 said:
Dude, the vast majority of fans and competitors are completely against the plans on the table.
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I'm strongly opposed to these proposed new rules, and have stated my reasons numerous times in this thread and previously. But many Nascar fans as well as almost all of the writers and commentators are excited about "the All Star package." You are dreaming if you think the vast majority of fans agree with you and me on what constitutes good racing. I for one feel @StandOnIt deserves respect as a passionate fan of Nascar and other racing. Although I disagree with him on this one issue, both sides are opinions.

StandOnIt said:
The Xfinity cars use tapered spacers, I believe the first year was in 2008 and the HP is limited to around 450HP.
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I believe your numbers are wrong, and it probably comes from confusing semantics. All Xfinity engines are artificially restricted in their air intake tract. At Daytona and Talladega, the restriction is via plate and results in about 450 HP. At all other tracks, the restriction is via tapered spacer for about 650 HP. The confusion is that these tapered spacer motors are often referred to as "unrestricted" although that is a misnomer. (And these cars have more drag and more downforce than Cup cars at all tracks, so extrapolating speed is questionable.)

Cup motors were free of artificial intake restrictions at 32 races up through 2014. They made about 850 HP, some say 900. For 2015, the Cup tapered spacer was mandated, which reduced HP to about 725, but that is still called "unrestricted" by many. At Daytona and Talladega, the plates yield around 420 HP. The new proposal for the so-called "NA18D" package is 550 HP. This is slightly more power than Daytona, but less than Xfinity.
 
gnomesayin said:
Nobody is whining. Nobody is a "phobe". Nobody is more or less biased than anyone else, as by definition this is a matter of opinion and preference. Some fans like the general direction NASCAR has gone in recently, and generally prefer to watch drivers forced to control higher-powered cars with less downforce. I'm one of those. That's how you separate the men from the boys (or the women from the girls).

Those on the opposite side place a premium on closer racing, and prefer lower-powered cars with higher downforce that are essentially glued to the track and each other. Many are openly critical of a few drivers being dominant and want everyone to be more 'equal'. This approach creates an entirely different kind of momentum-based racing that doesn't reward traditional car control racing skills.

People who favor the new package aren't happy with the current one. If they were, they wouldn't support radical change.

Finally, "Don't criticize it until you've seen it" is another cheap rhetorical trick that is designed to eliminate criticism until it is too late and what's done is done. Anyone who is familiar with motorsports knows what kind of racing is produced by cutting power and increasing downforce. All any of us can do is state our individual opinions and hope they have some impact.
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There ya go again, posting a reasonable position on the Internet. Geez, some people. :rolleyes:
 
LewTheShoe said:
I'm strongly opposed to these proposed new rules, and have stated my reasons numerous times in this thread and previously. But many Nascar fans as well as almost all of the writers and commentators are excited about "the All Star package." You are dreaming if you think the vast majority of fans agree with you and me on what constitutes good racing. I for one feel @StandOnIt deserves respect as a passionate fan of Nascar and other racing. Although I disagree with him on this one issue, both sides are opinions.


I believe your numbers are wrong, and it probably comes from confusing semantics. All Xfinity engines are artificially restricted in their air intake tract. At Daytona and Talladega, the restriction is via plate and results in about 450 HP. At all other tracks, the restriction is via tapered spacer for about 650 HP. The confusion is that these tapered spacer motors are often referred to as "unrestricted" although that is a misnomer. (And these cars have more drag and more downforce than Cup cars at all tracks, so extrapolating speed is questionable.)

Cup motors were free of artificial intake restrictions at 32 races up through 2014. They made about 850 HP, some say 900. For 2015, the Cup tapered spacer was mandated, which reduced HP to about 725, but that is still called "unrestricted" by many. At Daytona and Talladega, the plates yield around 420 HP. The new proposal for the so-called "NA18D" package is 550 HP. This is slightly more power than Daytona, but less than Xfinity.
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Yeah After reading further I have read that Xfinity motors have from 450 HP to 75HP less than cup motors with cup motors being at 725. The tapered spacer is used in both the trucks and the Xfinity, they have been used for years. It might be different now in the truck motors, I haven't been able to find a HP rating on the IImor NT-1

Whatever the HP is, here is some data. Larson's time was with 150HP less than what they are talking about shooting for so I would take a wild guess somewhere between 173 and 191, probably around 180ish

The pole speed in the 1990 Coca-Cola 600 was 173.963. The pole speed for the 2018 Coca-Cola 600 was 191.836 mph. Alternatively, Kyle Larson ran a 173.305 on final practice for the NASCAR All-Star race with this proposed package.
 
I'll pose the question one more time as it seems the experts either don't want to answer or can't...why change the current package in NASCAR when the racing has been better?
 
Mopardh9 said:
I'll pose the question one more time as it seems the experts either don't want to answer or can't...why change the current package in NASCAR when the racing has been better?
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Probably because Brian France and his stooges listen to the focus groups composed of causal fans, or they read the comments from all the mouth breathing neanderthals on NASCAR.com articles
 
2 Sweet said:
Probably because Brian France and his stooges listen to the focus groups composed of causal fans, or they read the comments from all the mouth breathing neanderthals on NASCAR.com articles
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yeah here is one of those mouth breathing neanderthals..the nerve of those Smith's :D

Marcus Smith, the president and chief operating officer of Speedway Motorsports Inc which owns Charlotte Motor Speedway, wants the aero package to be introduced imminently.

"One of my things in life is, 'Don't delay a good thing'. If you're going to do it, go ahead and do it now," Smith told Autosport.
 
StandOnIt said:
yeah here is one of those mouth breathing neanderthals..the nerve of those Smith's :D

Marcus Smith, the president and chief operating officer of Speedway Motorsports Inc which owns Charlotte Motor Speedway, wants the aero package to be introduced imminently.

"One of my things in life is, 'Don't delay a good thing'. If you're going to do it, go ahead and do it now," Smith told Autosport.
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Yep, Marcus Smith asked for it unchanged at every 1.5er right on the back. What a moron.
 
Marcus Smith stated that the All-Star Race was so great that it was the first time he'd wanted to stop schmoozing with his friends in the suite during the race and watch intently without interruption. That's your authority on racing.
 
My opinion for what its worth is NASCAR should do minor tweaks at a time rather than wholesale changes.Drastic changes will drive people away rather than to it.If they let the dust settle and see how things play out it will probably center itself.Racing at its best is when those who work harder and unfortunately spend the most go the fastest.WE don't really want IROC racing do we?
 
The cars need more horsepower and downforce, it has been painfully clear since 2014.
 
No matter how much NASCAR execs publicly spin that they believe that everything is better than ever, that everything is great, it is apparent that they are indeed very insecure about something(s). They wouldn't drastically alter some aspect of the series every other year if they were as content as they claim to be. It is far from inspiring.

They are so far gone into the dart-throwing, scraping the bottom of the barrel phase of ideating or brainstorming or whatever they want to call it and everyone should be pissed. Imagine actually having to explain to potential fans next year why the "premier series" has the slowest, easiest-to-drive cars NASCAR sanctions. Holy cow.
 
joe h said:
The cars need more horsepower and downforce, it has been painfully clear since 2014.
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more speed increases the aero problems, more or less downforce hasn't helped, both have been tried. The gap between the haves and the have nots continues to enlarge towards F-1 proportions. Last year, the first year with the less downforce package that came after the failure of the more downforce package was scrapped, the haves with tons of money and wind tunnel time figured it out and they have been shutting out the rest of the competition. Last year at least they had more winners, this year, not so much. The tracks they are considering using the package on are tracks that don't produce the best racing..note: many 1.5's in the list
fans could get their first look at the All-Star package at Las Vegas Motor Speedway on March 3 followed by Auto Club Speedway on March 17.
The configuration could also be used for both races at Texas Motor Speedway (3/31, 11/3), Kansas Speedway (5/11, 10/20), Michigan Speedway (6/9, 8/11) the Charlotte May races (5/18, 5/26), Chicagoland Speedway (6/30), Kentucky Speedway (7/13) and Indianapolis Motor Speedway (9/9).
FLRacingFan said:
No matter how much NASCAR execs publicly spin that they believe that everything is better than ever, that everything is great, it is apparent that they are indeed very insecure about something(s). They wouldn't drastically alter some aspect of the series every other year if they were as content as they claim to be. It is far from inspiring.

They are so far gone into the dart-throwing, scraping the bottom of the barrel phase of ideating or brainstorming or whatever they want to call it and everyone should be pissed. Imagine actually having to explain to potential fans next year why the "premier series" has the slowest, easiest-to-drive cars NASCAR sanctions. Holy cow.
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The speed differential you abhor doesn't look to be that huge

Whatever the HP is, here is some data. Larson's time was without the150HP more than what they are talking about shooting for so I would take a wild guess somewhere between 173 and 191, probably around 180ish

The pole speed in the 1990 Coca-Cola 600 was 173.963. The pole speed for the 2018 Coca-Cola 600 was 191.836 mph. Alternatively, Kyle Larson ran a 173.305 on final practice for the NASCAR All-Star race with this proposed package.
 
StandOnIt said:
The speed differential you abhor doesn't look to be that huge

Whatever the HP is, here is some data. Larson's time was without the150HP more than what they are talking about shooting for so I would take a wild guess somewhere between 173 and 191, probably around 180ish

The pole speed in the 1990 Coca-Cola 600 was 173.963. The pole speed for the 2018 Coca-Cola 600 was 191.836 mph. Alternatively, Kyle Larson ran a 173.305 on final practice for the NASCAR All-Star race with this proposed package.
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How that generate that speed is vastly different. Larson obviously set that time in the draft, as in qualifying most drivers struggled to reach 170 MPH. Most, if not all, of the lap would be spent in the 160s.

Take Kyle Busch's run (starting around 43:40). He spends his entire full flying lap plus the second lap until he brakes for pit road in the 160-166 MPH range. Almost nonexistent difference between low and top speed. No braking input, not so much as a lift. They ran low HP, ~3,200 pounds of downforce. It is not nearly equal to averaging 175 with a substantial difference between top-end and cornering speed. Saying they are "adding power" might come off good, but it's still nowhere near what these cars are capable of, and nowhere near challenging enough to warrant being called a premier anything.

 
That is your opinion, These are the racing speeds not qualifying speeds of the open drivers top 5, 150 more horse power and no telling what else the package will entail would undoubtedly increase the speed. Sorry but I believe they have reached speeds of diminishing returns. You obviously think having the same one or two teams every week who hit the perfect setup following each other while they drive away from the pack is entertaining. I don't particularly think that F-1 style stock car racing is that great

upload_2018-7-30_21-8-58.png
 
StandOnIt said:
That is your opinion, These are the racing speeds not qualifying speeds of the open drivers top 5, 150 more horse power and no telling what else the package will entail would undoubtedly increase the speed. Sorry but I believe they have reached speeds of diminishing returns. You obviously think having the same one or two teams every week who hit the perfect setup following each other while they drive away from the pack is entertaining. I don't particularly think that F-1 style stock car racing is that great

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When you sit in traffic, you pass and get passed a lot. When the freeway is clear, there’s only about 3 asshats that are obviously quicker.


NASCAR wants to be traffic.


Also, to your point about speeds today vs the 90’s... giving these cars 80’s-90’s horsepower levels does not change the downforce machine chassis and putting holes in the nose to try to make them race side by side is moronic.


Here’s an idea to fix F1’s “boringness”, get rid of front wings.. hell, get rid of the rear wings too... but let’s make the rest of the car stay exactly the same....
 
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Speaking in terms of average lap speeds is a reductive, simplistic way of looking at it. Most are aware there is more going on.than that.
 
ChexOrWrex said:
Yep. Been that way with this gen 6. Even JJ has said that it seems every year there are a couple of teams that figure out how to pass and everyone else struggles.

Dont have to be running near the front to cause a mess.
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The fastest cars will pass, its always been that way, always will. Gen 6 has nothing to do with it. The team that does the homework will always win, happens everytime. Just enjoy the racing and quit finding a reason to be unhappy.
 
Mopardh9 said:
So what...i have the right to complain just like you and your buddy have to be PR reps for NASCAR. Instead why don't you answer my question?
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So what? You dont know what you want, other then complaining every damn race.I have the right to prove you dont know jack. You still wanna bet about you whining about the racing on the 1.5's? Hell, you complain about everything! lol
 
gnomesayin said:
Nobody is whining. Nobody is a "phobe". Nobody is more or less biased than anyone else, as by definition this is a matter of opinion and preference. Some fans like the general direction NASCAR has gone in recently, and generally prefer to watch drivers forced to control higher-powered cars with less downforce. I'm one of those. That's how you separate the men from the boys (or the women from the girls).

Those on the opposite side place a premium on closer racing, and prefer lower-powered cars with higher downforce that are essentially glued to the track and each other. Many are openly critical of a few drivers being dominant and want everyone to be more 'equal'. This approach creates an entirely different kind of momentum-based racing that doesn't reward traditional car control racing skills.

People who favor the new package aren't happy with the current one. If they were, they wouldn't support radical change.

Finally, "Don't criticize it until you've seen it" is another cheap rhetorical trick that is designed to eliminate criticism until it is too late and what's done is done. Anyone who is familiar with motorsports knows what kind of racing is produced by cutting power and increasing downforce. All any of us can do is state our individual opinions and hope they have some impact.
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I favor racing, as long as the playing field is equal and everybody follows the rules, thats all that matters. I dont care about downforce, or the lack of, I dont care about 220 vs 185, I dont care about "aero push", "dirty air" , "clean air" ,Pit guns" "stages" etc..... as long as you show up and unload a race car knowing what the rules are you better be ready to do what it takes. Thats how I grew up doing this and its never gonna change nor should it. The damn rules have changed constantly since Big Bill started this series so people need to quit complaining about it and just enjoy themselves. God I long for the days when people couldnt over analyze and gripe about something they never would have known in the first place.( Social Media) The fans would show up with their coolers and a bucket of chicken and root like hell for their driver or team and the specifics of the sport were left to the players.
 
Spotter22 said:
I favor racing, as long as the playing field is equal and everybody follows the rules, thats all that matters. I dont care about downforce, or the lack of, I dont care about 220 vs 185, I dont care about "aero push", "dirty air" , "clean air" ,Pit guns" "stages" etc..... as long as you show up and unload a race car knowing what the rules are you better be ready to do what it takes. Thats how I grew up doing this and its never gonna change nor should it. The damn rules have changed constantly since Big Bill started this series so people need to quit complaining about it and just enjoy themselves. God I long for the days when people couldnt over analyze and gripe about something they never would have known in the first place.( Social Media) The fans would show up with their coolers and a bucket of chicken and root like hell for their driver or team and the specifics of the sport were left to the players.
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BTW, no slam on you gnome, just my opinion on whats really wrong with the sport.
 
I respect your opinion, but don't know what to make of it. I remember my father being aware of all the ins and outs of rules changes back in the '80s when I was a little kid. I don't know how he kept up with it, because he was no insider, and there was no internet. But he did, and had his opinions, good and bad. I think it is a mistake to consider fan awareness and criticism as inherently bad for the sport. As I've said before, the problem is increasing lack of engagement and attention, not whether the people engaging are 100% happy or supportive of everything NASCAR does.

To be clear, I think some fans and media are needlessly and uselessly negative just for the sake of it. Frankly I think there is too much insecurity and lack of confidence about the sport's virtues from the top down, and it feeds the constant sense of dissatisfaction that leads to wholesale changes such as this new package.
 
Spotter22 said:
So what? You dont know what you want, other then complaining every damn race.I have the right to prove you dont know jack. You still wanna bet about you whining about the racing on the 1.5's? Hell, you complain about everything! lol
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I admitted that. Why would Nascar change something that is working? This year I have praised the racing as being much better outside of plate tracks.
 
gnomesayin said:
I respect your opinion, but don't know what to make of it. I remember my father being aware of all the ins and outs of rules changes back in the '80s when I was a little kid. I don't know how he kept up with it, because he was no insider, and there was no internet. But he did, and had his opinions, good and bad. I think it is a mistake to consider fan awareness and criticism as inherently bad for the sport. As I've said before, the problem is increasing lack of engagement and attention, not whether the people engaging are 100% happy or supportive of everything NASCAR does.

To be clear, I think some fans and media are needlessly and uselessly negative just for the sake of it. Frankly I think there is too much insecurity and lack of confidence about the sport's virtues from the top down, and it feeds the constant sense of dissatisfaction that leads to wholesale changes such as this new package.
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A new package which isn't needed, NASCAR does not need spec racing, that's what it's quickly heading to. Pushing fans away from the sport instead of gaining more is inherently stupid. Your breakdown of what is happening with the sport is welcoming after reading posts from those who find zero wrong with the sport.
 
Mopardh9 said:
I admitted that, you still didn't answer the question PR man. Why would Nascar change something that is working? This year I have praised the racing as being much better outside of plate tracks. Get your facts straight.
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I've got my facts straight.
 
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