NASCAR Death Bed

gnomesayin said:
Agreed.

I was refuting the notion that the reported 300% increase in JGR's alliance fee for FRR:

a. Wasn't an important factor in FRR closing

and

b. Wasn't a conscious and purposeful move on JGR's part to eliminate the unwanted competition.

They had every right to do so. And fans of a spectator sport can form opinions accordingly.
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I hate to see this also but those are the facts. Barney had a heart attack last year so maybe declining health is a factor in this decision. He's wealthy enough to fund this if he wants to keep going until finding sponsors but he chooses not to.
 
stage 1 is meaningless.
it now gives ill handling cars a chance to catch up.
before stages and fake cautions, a race was like a good movie plot unfolding.
nascar is so desparate to get fans to watch,
they put a gun to their head and said,
hey y'all, watch this.
 
Formerjackman said:
I guess my question is, in the entire history of FRR, how much sponsorship did they ever actively bring into the team? For years I'm not sure Visser either wanted or cared about that. Didn't Truex bring in Bass Pro? Was 5 hour Energy a deal the team did, or did that basically come as a package when the Jones Boy was there? I know they had had a couple other deals, but I just have to think that Visser never put in the infrastructure to try to prevent getting caught short like some of the other teams do. You also have the fact that they seemed pretty determined to remain a one car team, which makes it that much harder to weather a storm, so not to slam the guy, but I think Visser has to take a pretty good chunk of the blame for what ended up happening.
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Bingo.
 
All is well now. They were all standing in line to be part of the preacher's yota's next fresh meat program. Pick me pick me. :D Leavine Family who?
 
StandOnIt said:
All is well now. They were all standing in line to be part of the preacher's yota's next fresh meat program. Pick me pick me. :D Leavine Family who?
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Odd that such a little team could afford the alliance price when Visser couldn't.
 
Revman said:
Odd that such a little team could afford the alliance price when Visser couldn't.
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Which is why feel pretty certain they are NOT paying the price that Visser was quoted which makes JGR's motives seem even less sincere. They are now likely taking LESS money to help a team that is LESS likely to give them useful feedback that would actually help JGR. Draw your own conclusions what this was all about. ,
 
Formerjackman said:
Which is why feel pretty certain they are NOT paying the price that Visser was quoted which makes JGR's motives seem even less sincere. They are now likely taking LESS money to help a team that is LESS likely to give them useful feedback that would actually help JGR. Draw your own conclusions what this was all about. ,
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Yeah, I will draw my own conclusions.....respectfully.....just as you did. One would only argue that LFR wasn't charged the same if he wanted to support the Greedy Coach narrative. We only have Barney's word, and even that isn't good enough for most.
 
I couldn't answer, I can't figure out what to call Leavine Family Racing. Backfired racing alliance racing, Cut rate alliance racing? Good luck, Leavine Racing, watch your back racing. Jus Bidness racing. :XXROFL:
 
StandOnIt said:
I couldn't answer, I can't figure out what to call Leavine Family Racing. Backfired racing alliance racing, Cut rate alliance racing? Good luck, Leavine Racing, watch your back racing. Jus Bidness racing. :XXROFL:
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Your objective analysis (Because that is what we do around here, right?) is very much appreciated.
 
Eh I think Leavine Family Racing is going to do better next year, it is a step up for them and that is what they are looking at. But on the other hand they probably got a swinging deal to change IMO.
 
Revman said:
Yeah, I will draw my own conclusions.....respectfully.....just as you did. One would only argue that LFR wasn't charged the same if he wanted to support the Greedy Coach narrative. We only have Barney's word, and even that isn't good enough for most.
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My argument was based on the believe that there is no way LFR could afford the affiliation if it was anywhere close to what Furniture was going to have to pay. My guess is that LFR will pay a LOT closer to what FRR has been paying. As for Barney Visser, I'm not going to call him a liar, but understand when he made that statement, he knew that like it or not, he was going to have deal with JGR for another three months or so if he had any hope of finishing his final NASCAR season on a high note and contend for another championship. Sometimes you have to swallow your pride and say what you have to say and do what you have to do. It's also possible that Barney just isn't the kind of guy to call people out. I know some very accomplished people, that if you would walk up and kick them in the shims, at least publicly they would apologize for their leg being in your way. You have every right to disagree with my assessment, but I have been following this stuff since the early 1980's and sometimes certain things don't pass the smell test, and this is one of them. That, combined with the statements made here by allenbaba tell me that I'm probably closer to the truth than you want to admit.
 
Formerjackman said:
My argument was based on the believe that there is no way LFR could afford the affiliation if it was anywhere close to what Furniture was going to have to pay. My guess is that LFR will pay a LOT closer to what FRR has been paying. As for Barney Visser, I'm not going to call him a liar, but understand when he made that statement, he knew that like it or not, he was going to have deal with JGR for another three months or so if he had any hope of finishing his final NASCAR season on a high note and contend for another championship. Sometimes you have to swallow your pride and say what you have to say and do what you have to do. It's also possible that Barney just isn't the kind of guy to call people out. I know some very accomplished people, that if you would walk up and kick them in the shims, at least publicly they would apologize for their leg being in your way. You have every right to disagree with my assessment, but I have been following this stuff since the early 1980's and sometimes certain things don't pass the smell test, and this is one of them. That, combined with the statements made here by allenbaba tell me that I'm probably closer to the truth than you want to admit.
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I respect your opinion, but I do not agree with it. It is a huge stretch to suggest that Barney would lie when he could have dodged the question which would have had the same effect if your theory is true. As I have said in a previous post, I will go with what Mr. Visser said because at the end of the day, that is the only factual statement we have. Speculation about alliances prices are just that, and those that are extreme support a narrative many want to have for some reason.
 
Revman said:
I will go with what Mr. Visser said because at the end of the day, that is the only factual statement we have....
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Me too. Here is what he said. This was early August, a few months after 5 Hour Energy's decision to withdraw, but before Gibbs jacked up the technical alliance price.

00000DkFGoqtXoAAfFBN.jpg
 
Shhh, people want to form their own opinions. Course we can all have different ones ..Oops.
 
I watched like 10 laps of the race today, boring as hell, screwed the track with the re -pave. Must of been less than half full today as far as fans in the seats. When is NASCAR going to finally realize they either need to shorten the season or start it earlier so they don't go head to head with the NFL for 3 months?
 
Mopardh9 said:
I watched like 10 laps of the race today, boring as hell, screwed the track with the re -pave. Must of been less than half full today as far as fans in the seats. When is NASCAR going to finally realize they either need to shorten the season or start it earlier so they don't go head to head with the NFL for 3 months?
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Half full is extremely generous. 1/3 at best, and that puts it around 40k
 
They gotta cut off a Kansas, Vegas, Texas, Pocono, Michigan race and go to Gateway, Dirt Track (Eldora or Knoxville), alternating all-star race and rotating road course venue, for a 34 race schedule. Ending in late October/first week of November.

If IMS ever went by the wayside, go to IRP.
 
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Mopardh9 said:
It's time NASCAR rethought the schedule, the NFL is killing them, that and the gimmicks.
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The NFL is king but Nascar & the NFL have co-existed for as long as I can remember. Nascar's problems aren't other sports. Nascar's problems are from within.

Yesterday, I spent the morning with my father-in-law working on some wood projects. Many years ago, I took him to his first race. Before that, he was just a casual fan. After that first visit to Dover, he was hooked. So was my mother-in-law. They were watching every single week. Playing in Nascar fantasy league's. Going to Nascar viewing parties, Doing all the things that avid Nascar fans do. Yesterday, when I asked him what he thought of the race last week, he told me that while he had heard what happened, he hadn't seen it. In fact, he hasn't watched hardly any races this season. He does keep up on some of the happenings in the sport but it no longer dominates his Sunday afternoon.

I asked him why he lacked the interest that he once had in the sport. It had nothing to do with wanting to watch other sports, it was simply the changes that he's seen over the past 25+ years. He's lost interest because Nascar has become a former shell of what it once was. I find myself feeling much the same but for different reasons than he mentioned to me. Some things that he liked, I didn't. Some that I like, he didn't. The common denominator is change. There's no question that the sport has to evolve and things do need to change, technology wise & the like but did everything have to change? That's where their problem is with the long time fan.

What about getting that new fan? The one that is going to go into this sport without really knowing what it once was. I don't know how Nascar can gain their interest. I do know that in years gone by, new fans were made by getting them to the track for their first time courtesy of that diehard fan. That was a way to create a lifelong fan. I'm afraid that by alienating us older fans with the ever changing format of this sport, we're not getting to these tracks anymore, introducing a new fan-base. Nascar needed us yet they never realized it.

I think the sport is going to be around for long, long time. It's going to play out in front of a much smaller audience, but it's going to be there. The sport will eventually 'right-size' and become a new norm. It'll simply never be what it was in its glory days.
 
Fans speak and have a similar opinion to mine, the different one -













 
dpkimmel2001 said:
The NFL is king but Nascar & the NFL have co-existed for as long as I can remember. Nascar's problems aren't other sports. Nascar's problems are from within.

Yesterday, I spent the morning with my father-in-law working on some wood projects. Many years ago, I took him to his first race. Before that, he was just a casual fan. After that first visit to Dover, he was hooked. So was my mother-in-law. They were watching every single week. Playing in Nascar fantasy league's. Going to Nascar viewing parties, Doing all the things that avid Nascar fans do. Yesterday, when I asked him what he thought of the race last week, he told me that while he had heard what happened, he hadn't seen it. In fact, he hasn't watched hardly any races this season. He does keep up on some of the happenings in the sport but it no longer dominates his Sunday afternoon.

I asked him why he lacked the interest that he once had in the sport. It had nothing to do with wanting to watch other sports, it was simply the changes that he's seen over the past 25+ years. He's lost interest because Nascar has become a former shell of what it once was. I find myself feeling much the same but for different reasons than he mentioned to me. Some things that he liked, I didn't. Some that I like, he didn't. The common denominator is change. There's no question that the sport has to evolve and things do need to change, technology wise & the like but did everything have to change? That's where their problem is with the long time fan.

What about getting that new fan? The one that is going to go into this sport without really knowing what it once was. I don't know how Nascar can gain their interest. I do know that in years gone by, new fans were made by getting them to the track for their first time courtesy of that diehard fan. That was a way to create a lifelong fan. I'm afraid that by alienating us older fans with the ever changing format of this sport, we're not getting to these tracks anymore, introducing a new fan-base. Nascar needed us yet they never realized it.

I think the sport is going to be around for long, long time. It's going to play out in front of a much smaller audience, but it's going to be there. The sport will eventually 'right-size' and become a new norm. It'll simply never be what it was in its glory days.
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Awesome post
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
I wonder how many of those Nascar fans posted their tweet from their seat at the track yesterday?
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From the size of the crowd that we saw during the event, not many...ROFLMAO!!!! Boring racing doesn't bring out a crowd.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
The NFL is king but Nascar & the NFL have co-existed for as long as I can remember. Nascar's problems aren't other sports. Nascar's problems are from within.

Yesterday, I spent the morning with my father-in-law working on some wood projects. Many years ago, I took him to his first race. Before that, he was just a casual fan. After that first visit to Dover, he was hooked. So was my mother-in-law. They were watching every single week. Playing in Nascar fantasy league's. Going to Nascar viewing parties, Doing all the things that avid Nascar fans do. Yesterday, when I asked him what he thought of the race last week, he told me that while he had heard what happened, he hadn't seen it. In fact, he hasn't watched hardly any races this season. He does keep up on some of the happenings in the sport but it no longer dominates his Sunday afternoon.

I asked him why he lacked the interest that he once had in the sport. It had nothing to do with wanting to watch other sports, it was simply the changes that he's seen over the past 25+ years. He's lost interest because Nascar has become a former shell of what it once was. I find myself feeling much the same but for different reasons than he mentioned to me. Some things that he liked, I didn't. Some that I like, he didn't. The common denominator is change. There's no question that the sport has to evolve and things do need to change, technology wise & the like but did everything have to change? That's where their problem is with the long time fan.

What about getting that new fan? The one that is going to go into this sport without really knowing what it once was. I don't know how Nascar can gain their interest. I do know that in years gone by, new fans were made by getting them to the track for their first time courtesy of that diehard fan. That was a way to create a lifelong fan. I'm afraid that by alienating us older fans with the ever changing format of this sport, we're not getting to these tracks anymore, introducing a new fan-base. Nascar needed us yet they never realized it.

I think the sport is going to be around for long, long time. It's going to play out in front of a much smaller audience, but it's going to be there. The sport will eventually 'right-size' and become a new norm. It'll simply never be what it was in its glory days.
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Sport keeps changing and changing first it was the points system (not for the better) then it was the car, then it was the points system again, then to races themselves- stages along with multiple rules packages now people want to change the schedule. How long is it going to be before you run out of things to change and then you have to look inward and say “maybe what we are doing isn’t working at all” I agree the sport will be around but when you say right size, are we talking early 80’s level? Because I would be more than okay with that. I also believe 36 races are way too damn many 30-32 would be the right size. End the first week in Nobvember maybe last in October.
 
Snappy D said:
I agree the sport will be around but when you say right size, are we talking early 80’s level? Because I would be more than okay with that.
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Who's to say. One thing for sure, it's still working down to whatever level that size is.

I still think the only way to get new race fans is to get them to the track. I haven't been to a race since Martinsville decided to remove my seating location but one things for sure, the track knows that I was an attending fan. They continue to email me offers just as many of the other tracks that we once held season tickets for. Dover, Richmond, Bristol still send me ticket offers. None of that's been enough to bring me back. Maybe a free ticket/tickets would? Maybe, just maybe, if they can get some of the long time fans back to the track, we'll bring a friend. Someone that's not been to a race before. Someone that just might become a race fan after having experienced a race in person. Anyone that's been to the track knows that it's a powerful experience. That's where most Nascar fans were born, at the track. At least, that's what I believe. That's what got me hooked. It's always been somewhat of a buddy system. I'd venture to guess that most fans were created as a result of someone taking them to that first race.
 
I dont know how anyone could claim an old points system was superior to what we have now. I never liked Earnhardt Sr and it grated on my nerves how he, or anyone, could lock up a championship with several races left to be run. That was stupid. Or running around in the back all day playing it safe for a good points day, that was lame too.

Now week to week the racing on the track is to me the best I have ever seen. A majority of the races are exciting. It used to always be a minority of them. Stages improved racing. Points matter and so do wins.

I wonder now since it's that good why can't it be left alone? Run it sever as l years. There doesn't have to be change every year for the sake of change.
 
My response would be that I'd say a majority of hard core fans don't like what they're seeing, and I'll bet 90+% of the casual fans are not enamored with what you describe as good racing. And yes, points being important is a good thing, but I don't see why we have to throw a caution to give them out. On the other hand, wins went from not being important enough, to WAY too important, to the point that a couple of well placed wins erases a season of mediocrity, which in my opinion isn't right either. If you can convince me that ANY of the drivers ranked 5th through 8th actually deserve a chance to win a race at Phoenix and race for a championship at Homestead, I'll eat my hat.
 
Formerjackman said:
My response would be that I'd say a majority of hard core fans don't like what they're seeing, and I'll bet 90+% of the casual fans are not enamored with what you describe as good racing. And yes, points being important is a good thing, but I don't see why we have to throw a caution to give them out. On the other hand, wins went from not being important enough, to WAY too important, to the point that a couple of well placed wins erases a season of mediocrity, which in my opinion isn't right either. If you can convince me that ANY of the drivers ranked 5th through 8th actually deserve a chance to win a race at Phoenix and race for a championship at Homestead, I'll eat my hat.
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There was a guy that figured points using the F-1 system I believe. Before Texas it was Kyle Bush in front like 25 points ahead of Harvick and the others distantly behind. After Texas it would be neck and neck with two races to go. Isn't that enough? It is for me.
 
@Formerjackman - I doubt it's anywhere close to 90%. I dont know what racing you're watching to say the racing is bad. These guys are driving hard the whole race. Wins ought to matter. Those guys running 5th from 8th deserve to be there because they were all consistent.
StandOnIt said:
There was a guy that figured points using the F-1 system I believe. Before Texas it was Kyle Bush in front like 25 points ahead of Harvick and the others distantly behind. After Texas it would be neck and neck with two races to go. Isn't that enough? It is for me.
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It's silly to figure the points using an old system or an F1 system. Why would you do that it isn't even relevant? That's comparing apples to rocks. Drivers aren't going to drive the same way they are in this points system versus another strategy will be different. It's a meaningless exercise to do that.
 
Towmater said:
Fans speak and have a similar opinion to mine, the different one -
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I've been skeptical, but I think he has proven his case, everyone. The ability to search Twitter for "NASCAR empty stands" and post results, including one twice for creative emphasis, is persuasive.

The ideas featured here, such as "find another activity to stare at on Sunday. NASCAR is dead.", will help the sport that he and we enjoy.
 
NASCAR ratings/attendance/interest has declined drastically since the creation of the playoff format after 2003. Is that just a coincidence? Why don't you ask all the fans who started losing interest around that time and see what they say.
 
10-4 said:
It's silly to figure the points using an old system or an F1 system. Why would you do that it isn't even relevant? That's comparing apples to rocks. Drivers aren't going to drive the same way they are in this points system versus another strategy will be different. It's a meaningless exercise to do that.
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I would suggest that you examine the post that I was discussing after Jackman posted. I also agree with Formerjackman that there will be drivers in the final four that under ANY points system but Nascar's latest wouldn't be within sight of a title. Silly? drivers race for positions. Believe it of not they award points for those positions. Seems to me every driver would be trying to finish as high as possible, unless you know somehow they would drive slower to get less points and that makes some kind of sense..:confused:
 
10-4 said:
It's silly to figure the points using an old system or an F1 system. Why would you do that it isn't even relevant? That's comparing apples to rocks. Drivers aren't going to drive the same way they are in this points system versus another strategy will be different. It's a meaningless exercise to do that.
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I agree with this. The current drivers and teams have figured out how to game the system based upon the rules of today. The drivers and teams of yesterday learned how to game the system and raced to win under that system.

The empty stands are a huge issue. This looks horrible on TV.

 
Towmater said:
I agree with this. The current drivers and teams have figured out how to game the system based upon the rules of today. The drivers and teams of yesterday learned how to game the system and raced to win under that system.

The empty stands are a huge issue. This looks horrible on TV.

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You obviously weren't around two years ago when Harvick was so far ahead of everybody else if the older system was used. Like he said yesterday, he doesn't race counting points on his fingers, he races to win the race.
 
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