NASCAR Death Bed

@ 2Sweet

Those were a bunch of fair weather fans to start with. Nascar also massively over built tracks.

I remember the format before the chase. It sucked. For Earnhardt to clinch a championship with 4 races left to go was crazy. That had to change. Guaranteed Nascar would have the same empty stands problem today if they hadn't changed the points system. There was a lot of boring racing back then. A lot of guys playing it safe all day long at the back of the pack.
 
10-4 said:
Those were a bunch of fair weather fans to start with. Nascar also massively over built tracks.

I remember the format before the chase. It sucked. For Earnhardt to clinch a championship with 4 races left to go was crazy. That had to change. Guaranteed Nascar would have the same empty stands problem today if they hadn't changed the points system. There was a lot of boring racing back then. A lot of guys playing it safe all day long at the back of the pack.
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sure glad they didn't pay money for positions back then :confused:
 
10-4 said:
@ 2Sweet

Those were a bunch of fair weather fans to start with. Nascar also massively over built tracks.

I remember the format before the chase. It sucked. For Earnhardt to clinch a championship with 4 races left to go was crazy. That had to change. Guaranteed Nascar would have the same empty stands problem today if they hadn't changed the points system. There was a lot of boring racing back then. A lot of guys playing it safe all day long at the back of the pack.
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When did Earnhardt or anyone else have it locked up with 4 races left?

And I would love to see any example of a race where Earnhardt and Gordon and Wallace were "playing it safe" riding around at the back.
 
2 Sweet said:
When did Earnhardt or anyone else have it locked up with 4 races left?

And I would love to see any example of a race where Earnhardt and Gordon and Wallace were "playing it safe" riding around at the back.
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that is kinda funny when you think about it. and that dude called my post silly.:p I can hear it now "And Earnhardt playing it safe runs last". "Wallace is fighting for last place, having a tough time of it with Earnhardt"
 
2 Sweet said:
When did Earnhardt or anyone else have it locked up with 4 races left?

And I would love to see any example of a race where Earnhardt and Gordon and Wallace were "playing it safe" riding around at the back.
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He clinched the championship in 87 with 2 races left on the schedule. He did that twice or maybe 3 times. Richard Petty did it. Cale Yarborough did it.

I might be mixing up eras. Points racing then was a different animal. Look how a guy like Matt Kenseth in the modern era was known for riding around in the back and then surging toward the front near the end of the race. That kind of driving doesn't work anymore. You have to race hard the entire race now. That is not to say what Matt would do was bad or unimpressive but he really struggled with the stages because he didn't adapt to them before he got railroaded out of the sport.
 
Another thing Nascar with this jacked up points system has missed the mark on, and that is that they think the series champion is more important than it is. Stick n ballers are mostly team fans, most of them don't know all of the players on the winning team, mostly they pick a team and that is their favorite to follow. Race fans like a driver, some follow many, some just love the sport. I guess some wouldn't watch the last races if their driver sisn't have a chance of winning the title, but that didn't happen when they didn't have this playoff points system. Another example, last weekend Donnie Schatz had already won the title, all he had to do was show up for a heat race. The place was sold out. If you were a stick n baller your team would have already won, so what is the point of going? BTW Schatz didn't put it on the trailer, 10 time champ that he is, he went out an won the feature race.
 
10-4 said:
He clinched the championship in 87 with 2 races left on the schedule. He did that twice or maybe 3 times. Richard Petty did it. Cale Yarborough did it.

I might be mixing up eras. Points racing then was a different animal. Look how a guy like Matt Kenseth in the modern era was known for riding around in the back and then surging toward the front near the end of the race. That kind of driving doesn't work anymore. You have to race hard the entire race now. That is not to say what Matt would do was bad or unimpressive but he really struggled with the stages because he didn't adapt to them before he got railroaded out of the sport.
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I see your point with the stages, but the playoff nonsense is what I have a hard time swallowing
 
10-4 said:
He clinched the championship in 87 with 2 races left on the schedule. He did that twice or maybe 3 times. Richard Petty did it. Cale Yarborough did it.

I might be mixing up eras. Points racing then was a different animal. Look how a guy like Matt Kenseth in the modern era was known for riding around in the back and then surging toward the front near the end of the race. That kind of driving doesn't work anymore. You have to race hard the entire race now. That is not to say what Matt would do was bad or unimpressive but he really struggled with the stages because he didn't adapt to them before he got railroaded out of the sport.
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The old point system wasn't perfect, that's fair. But looking at the last 30 years, I think the only time the championship was decided that early was 1994, and only because Ernie Irvan nearly died in the wreck at Michigan. OK, so the championship battle over the last few races that year was anti-climactic. Man, that must have been horrible! How many fans showed up for those last few races? ;)

The championship battle isn’t everything, despite what Letarte and Burton will tell you. There are 40 cars on the track, and each race is it’s own show. NASCAR tries so hard to be like stick and ball sports, but guess what? Not every football game is close, and not every World Series goes to Game 7. You can change the rules as many times as you want, and it won’t matter. It certainly didn’t matter before all this playoff nonsense, did it?
 
we shouldn't have to suffer thru the screaming gerbils and their continuous playoff babble during the race, .nobody should. It's mostly irrelevant until the winner crosses the line. The other announces on both of the other series are so much better, they mention the playoffs, let the viewer know about the positions, but it isn't their main topic, the racing is.
 
Every race has a mea
2 Sweet said:
The old point system wasn't perfect, that's fair. But looking at the last 30 years, I think the only time the championship was decided that early was 1994, and only because Ernie Irvan nearly died in the wreck at Michigan. OK, so the championship battle over the last few races that year was anti-climactic. Man, that must have been horrible! How many fans showed up for those last few races? ;)

The championship battle isn’t everything, despite what Letarte and Burton will tell you. There are 40 cars on the track, and each race is it’s own show. NASCAR tries so hard to be like stick and ball sports, but guess what? Not every football game is close, and not every World Series goes to Game 7. You can change the rules as many times as you want, and it won’t matter. It certainly didn’t matter before all this playoff nonsense, did it?
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Yeah the stands were full in the early to mid 1990's. Wasn't that before the boom of building all these mile and a half with tripled seating capacity? I would be willing to bet fan attendance now is about the same as it was then before the 2000's boom times when they over built all those seats. I was at Kentucky this year. Forever the dullest, most boring race on the schedule, even stages can't change that.. ..yeah there were lots of empty seats but there was still a huge crowd there. Went to the Bristol night race. That place was packed. The Roval too, it reminded me of Bristol.

You are right about each race being it's own show. What I love about going to the track is you can follow so much more than the frustratingly limited and sometimes outright questionable "battles" they follow on tv. I don't expect every race to be a barn burner but I do like that the majority of them now are good to watch. I seldom nap in the middle of one anymore. And like I said in another post I do wish they would hit the pause button on change. What we have right now is pretty good in my book.
 
Honestly I have no problem with the stages, but I still can’t get on board with the silly playoff format. If anything, I have noticed my interest actually decreases over the last 10 races, despite my favorite driver still in the running. I don’t think I’m alone in this boat.

I think the playoff format, among other changes like the car of tomorrow, alienated a large portion of the fanbase. And I’m not referring to fair weather casual fans, I’m referring to fans who watched every race and bought tickets to many races and bought tons of merchandise. Many of those fans lost interest with all the BS changes in the mid 00’s and haven’t come back. There are a lot of factors that contributed to the “decline” of NASCAR during the Brian France era, all of which have been discussed at length on this forum, so instead of dwelling on the past again I’ll try and shift the focus back to the future. Is there any way to get those old fans back? How do we “stop the bleeding” and keep the fans we still have? How do we get new fans to the track?

I think the sanctioning body needs to quit desperately making rules changes without having the foresight to really think them through, otherwise they will be changed again a couple years down the road. I think they need to quit listening to the BS focus groups made up of “casual fans” because they are wasting time on targeting a demographic that doesn’t know what they want and doesn’t understand racing. I think they need to ask the former fans why they left, so they won’t make the same mistakes again, and find out what it takes to get them back. I think they need to talk to the current fans, the hardcore fans that love racing, and really listen to us. Last but not least, listen to the drivers and the folks in the garage. It’s true that you can’t please everyone, but you don’t have to. All you need to do is have enough common sense to listen to the RIGHT people, and make decisions accordingly. Brian France didn’t have a lick of sense, and was clearly the wrong choice to lead NASCAR.

Sorry for the pointless rambling. Slow day at work. :D
 
10-4 said:
@Formerjackman - I doubt it's anywhere close to 90%. I dont know what racing you're watching to say the racing is bad. These guys are driving hard the whole race. Wins ought to matter. Those guys running 5th from 8th deserve to be there because they were all consistent.
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OK, they're racing hard, but they aren't ACCOMPLISHING anything! They're just chasing their tail, hoping SOMETHING happens to shuffle the running order. Yes, wins should matter, but they shouldn't be a free ticket to the post season. Wins should pay a nice point bonus, and points should be how we decide who the champion is going to be. I'm not going to run off and do a big Racing Reference search at the moment so I can't quote the numbers of the other three with any certainty, but the 9 car (which I pay the most attention to) has been consistent all right, consistently mediocre for most of the season, which is why he was mired in about 13th in actual points for most of the season. As much as I hate to admit it, only Harvick and KY Busch have truly EARNED a chance to win the title this year. Everyone else is just a poser.
 
@10-4, I welcome your opinions in this string of posts this morning, and I agree with most of 'em. Been saying those same things for quite a few years. It's a minority view around here, but that just keeps things interesting. BTW, nostalgia for points racing is deeply ingrained here at R-F...:idunno:
 
2 Sweet said:
Honestly I have no problem with the stages, but I still can’t get on board with the silly playoff format. If anything, I have noticed my interest actually decreases over the last 10 races, despite my favorite driver still in the running. I don’t think I’m alone in this boat.

I think the playoff format, among other changes like the car of tomorrow, alienated a large portion of the fanbase. And I’m not referring to fair weather casual fans, I’m referring to fans who watched every race and bought tickets to many races and bought tons of merchandise. Many of those fans lost interest with all the BS changes in the mid 00’s and haven’t come back. There are a lot of factors that contributed to the “decline” of NASCAR during the Brian France era, all of which have been discussed at length on this forum, so instead of dwelling on the past again I’ll try and shift the focus back to the future. Is there any way to get those old fans back? How do we “stop the bleeding” and keep the fans we still have? How do we get new fans to the track?

I think the sanctioning body needs to quit desperately making rules changes without having the foresight to really think them through, otherwise they will be changed again a couple years down the road. I think they need to quit listening to the BS focus groups made up of “casual fans” because they are wasting time on targeting a demographic that doesn’t know what they want and doesn’t understand racing. I think they need to ask the former fans why they left, so they won’t make the same mistakes again, and find out what it takes to get them back. I think they need to talk to the current fans, the hardcore fans that love racing, and really listen to us. Last but not least, listen to the drivers and the folks in the garage. It’s true that you can’t please everyone, but you don’t have to. All you need to do is have enough common sense to listen to the RIGHT people, and make decisions accordingly. Brian France didn’t have a lick of sense, and was clearly the wrong choice to lead NASCAR.

Sorry for the pointless rambling. Slow day at work. :D
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Close racing IMO is going to fix Nascar about a well as it can be fixed considering the political climate of automobiles, the economy and the ever changing ways people use to amuse themselves. Using the World of Outlaws in comparison, a racing series that is growing when most sporting events are declining, they put on a close show, run many traveling show races a year way more than Nascar, like 94 races a year. It flies in the face of what many fans say a shorter season would solve. What do they do right? They have close racing, passing all thru out the field, reasonable ticket prices, and a grass roots following young and old. I'll go with Keselowski's idea, Nascar needs 50 races a year, more local tracks tied to mid week races, a simple points structure, with ticket prices the grass roots fans can afford. They need to come to the future fans not the other way around.
 
StandOnIt said:
You obviously weren't around two years ago when Harvick was so far ahead of everybody else if the older system was used. Like he said yesterday, he doesn't race counting points on his fingers, he races to win the race.
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Right, like he isn't aware of the points and where he stands. If he had to finish 19th place or better in FL would he race for the win or race to be 18th or better to be champion? He'd race to be 18th or better and the champion.

Keep on believing he'd race for the win. Sure, he would - not.

BTW, I've been watching races for 30+ years.
 
Towmater said:
Right, like he isn't aware of the points and where he stands. If he had to finish 19th place or better in FL would he race for the win or race to be 18th or better to be champion? He'd race to be 18th or better and the champion.

Keep on believing he'd race for the win. Sure, he would - not.
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I suggest you pay attention next week to how Harvick races after he has a guaranteed spot in the playoffs. ;)
 
StandOnIt said:
I suggest you pay attention next week to how Harvick races after he has a guaranteed spot in the playoffs. ;)
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He's in the final the week after. Kind of like Joey at Texas, and next week. Thus, your post makes zero sense.
 
Towmater said:
He's in the final the week after. Kind of like Joey at Texas, and next week. Thus, your post makes zero sense.
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If that were so Logano should have been in the back. He led 54 laps :confused:

Towmater said: ↑
Right, like he isn't aware of the points and where he stands. If he had to finish 19th place or better in FL would he race for the win or race to be 18th or better to be champion? He'd race to be 18th or better and the champion.

Keep on believing he'd race for the win. Sure, he would - not.
 
StandOnIt said:
If that were so Logano should have been in the back.:confused:

Towmater said: ↑
Right, like he isn't aware of the points and where he stands. If he had to finish 19th place or better in FL would he race for the win or race to be 18th or better to be champion? He'd race to be 18th or better and the champion.

Keep on believing he'd race for the win. Sure, he would - not.
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In Miami if 1 of the 4 finalist is down 2 laps, and if 2 of the 3 finalist besides Harvick go out of the race via a wreck, then Harvick only needs to beat the car who is down 2 laps. He isn't going to race for the win. He going to race to stay ahead of the car that is 2 laps down. To not realize that and say he'll race for the win is ludicrous. Hey, but if you want to believe he'll race for the win keep on thinking it.
 
LewTheShoe said:
@10-4, I welcome your opinions in this string of posts this morning, and I agree with most of 'em.
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Seconded. I don't really agree about the defense of the playoffs format, do agree more that the traditional system was quite flawed itself because the points scale was absurdly flat.

Regardless, it is good to see quality and respectful posts from a new poster. Welcome aboard.
 
I don't think too many people want to defend the old Latford point system as it was, because there is no doubt it had serious flaws. What many of us fans would contend is that the current system is just as flawed, if not more so. Latford was on the right track, the system just needed a few tweaks, namely more points for running up front and winning. NASCAR sort of threw the baby out with threw bathwater to get where we are now.
 
Formerjackman said:
I don't think too many people want to defend the old Latford point system as it was, because there is no doubt it had serious flaws. What many of us fans would contend is that the current system is just as flawed, if not more so. Latford was on the right track, the system just needed a few tweaks, namely more points for running up front and winning. NASCAR sort of threw the baby out with threw bathwater to get where we are now.
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I say keep it exactly how it is, with the stages and 10 points awarded at the end of each, and the 5 point bonus for winning the race. Just don't have a playoff. We'd be in the middle of a dogfight between the 18 and the 4 right now. Xfinity points would be crazy too.
 
yeah I don't have a problem with the stages, I haven't paid enough attention to see or care if the awards are too high or low. Get rid of the lottery at the end and I am good. It still would be a bit hard to follow, but i could deal with it. It is impossible for me to keep up with it now. Burton makes a fool out of himself every weekend acting like he knows what is going on.
 
gnomesayin said:
Seconded. I don't really agree about the defense of the playoffs format, do agree more that the traditional system was quite flawed itself because the points scale was absurdly flat.

Regardless, it is good to see quality and respectful posts from a new poster. Welcome aboard.
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I appreciate it guys I lurked here for a few months before posting. It's just my opinions and for the most part I like what I'm seeing.
 
I like the points system as it is now! I think the stages force teams to race hard and give teams some extra stops to adjust their cars! My biggest problem is with pit road playing such a big part in deciding the winner! Under cautions I think cars should restart in the position they were running! Put a 20 second time limit on them to limit what could be done to the cars! Green flag stops would be as they are now!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
This could be very interesting, we need to keep an eye on this deal



Mitime is a subsidiary of the Geely Holding Group of China, a publicly-traded company on the Hong Kong Stock Exchange that is currently ranked 267 on the Fortune Global 500 list. Geely Motors is the largest private automobile manufacturer in China; in addition to its own Geely-branded cars, the company also owns the Volvo, Polestar, Proton (which includes Lotus), Lynk & Co and London Taxi Cab brands as well as the Terrafugia flying car brand. Geely operates manufacturing plants in China, the United States, England, Sweden, Belgium, Belarus, Australia and Malaysia. Geely is also the largest private shareholder of stock in Daimler, the parent company of Mercedes-Benz.


The company has plans to build 10 similarly-sized racetracks in China; the first one, Ningbo International Circuit, opened in 2017 and the second track is currently under construction. Geely also owns and operates the FIA Chinese Formula 4 Championship and is preparing to launch an entry in the FIA World Touring Car Championship under the Lynk & Co banner
https://utahmotorsportscampus.com/more/news-info/95-geely-purchases-utah-motorsports-campus.html
 
I have been to Milller Motorsports Park/Utah Motorsports Campus and it's a great facility that would not need a ton of work done for NASCAR. I think there would be a decent amount of fans in Utah that would support a NXS or Truck race (even Cup if NASCAR went into left field), but it's a decent amount of travel.

Nitro World Games, MotoAmerica, Pirelli World Challenge, Lucas Oil Off Road are not bad events for a niche crowd. I think a lower series like NXS or Trucks would be able to get a good 25,000 or more.
 
AuzGrams said:
I have been to Milller Motorsports Park/Utah Motorsports Campus and it's a great facility that would not need a ton of work done for NASCAR. I think there would be a decent amount of fans in Utah that would support a NXS or Truck race (even Cup if NASCAR went into left field), but it's a decent amount of travel.

Nitro World Games, MotoAmerica, Pirelli World Challenge, Lucas Oil Off Road are not bad events for a niche crowd. I think a lower series like NXS or Trucks would be able to get a good 25,000 or more.
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Texas can't even draw 15k for an Xfinity race, what makes you think they would draw that much in Utah?
 
10-4 said:
He clinched the championship in 87 with 2 races left on the schedule. He did that twice or maybe 3 times. Richard Petty did it. Cale Yarborough did it.

I might be mixing up eras. Points racing then was a different animal. Look how a guy like Matt Kenseth in the modern era was known for riding around in the back and then surging toward the front near the end of the race. That kind of driving doesn't work anymore. You have to race hard the entire race now. That is not to say what Matt would do was bad or unimpressive but he really struggled with the stages because he didn't adapt to them before he got railroaded out of the sport.
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Matt started near the back in most races because his CC worked on his car for the best possible race set up. This crew chief was his one and only since before Nascar.
They started near the back and raced forward the entire race to get the most points. That was the system in place and they performed well enough to win the championship. All drivers were trying to win the championship or make their cars better for the next season.
BTW, Nascar was growing steadily during those years.
Nascar has been declining ever since "top speed going into the corner" has
been the goal. They went from 600 HP to nearly 800 HP during this time.
Hopefully next year the cars will go a bit slower and require a driver to be able to outsmart
the ones he wants to pass.
Another thing I would like to remind people of is that drivers during the hayday
were grown men with families and not kids trying out the best pimple cream.
 
10-4 said:
Numbers are important and it's highly doubtful anyone on this forum is privy to JGR's numbers. Edited: and it also might very well not even be about the numbers. Perhaps Joe decided he was tired of the Furniture Row competition getting his wins. And that is his prerogative too.
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This.
StandOnIt said:
it has been reported from multiple sources that JGR raised his fee by three times what it was the year before. Believe it or not.
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Any reports about how much RCR raised alliance fees? How about Hendrick to Ganassi? No reports? Nothing. None. Prices stayed the same? Might be interesting to see what Hendrick charged SHR in their final year. Give us kind of a baseline, know what I mean? You cannot tell me what a driver makes, but everybody is certain on this 300% deal?....but we do have an owner's quote....but he is scared, isn't he? He is afraid that JGR will screw him. With what? JGR doesn't touch the motors. A body with a big dent in it? Rusty bolts? Pretty sure you won't find anybody here saying that Barney is a pushover and/or a wimp, but this narrative about his balls in a vice? C'mon man as they say.
 
Nobody has confirmed the 300% number, but nobody at JGR or anywhere else has denied it, either, in fact JGR have thus far refused to have ANY comment on the situation that I know of, which seems a little odd.

I don't know what HMS was charging SHR, but from everything I've read, Rick Hendrick seems to be the one not very happy when the alliance ended, not Gene Haas.

I don't believe Hendrick's involvement with Ganassi is for much more than engines and MAYBE some information sharing, certainly not a full blown
alliance.

RCR got Petty to join up, the team that couldn't afford a backup car a few weeks ago, so I think it's safe to assume they aren't charging a premium rate.

Do I think JGR could screw Furniture Row? Sure do. Do you want a GOOD car, or some old one Suarez has wrecked three times? Do you want access to Kyle's setups, or not? That tire changer is pretty fast, isn't he? It would be a shame if we suspended him for breaking some unspecified JGR team rule..... You get the point.

Somebody might have said Barney's balls were in a vice, but I never said it. What I am saying is that when all of this shook out, Barney knew he had less than three months left as a NASCAR team owner, and was still in the running for another championship. Probably not a good time to get in a public pissing contest with somebody you have to rely on to even get a car on the track every week.
 
10-4 said:
@ 2Sweet

Those were a bunch of fair weather fans to start with. Nascar also massively over built tracks.

I remember the format before the chase. It sucked. For Earnhardt to clinch a championship with 4 races left to go was crazy. That had to change. Guaranteed Nascar would have the same empty stands problem today if they hadn't changed the points system. There was a lot of boring racing back then. A lot of guys playing it safe all day long at the back of the pack.
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You'll fit right in. It's a wonder why people watched NASCAR at all before Brian France took over since it was so boring.
 
NASCAR needs to go back to the 1990s. Bring back driver's with character, have tobbaco sponsors, and appeal to the good ol' boys from the south. Thats what made the sport facinating to me.

Keep in mind I was and still am relatively young when I started to watch it (mid 90s), amd a minority from the north east.

Get rid of the chase, the stage racing, make the races shorter, and make it more authentic again. They tried too hard to appeal to an audience that was never going to watch it.
 
ReturnTrip said:
You'll fit right in. It's a wonder why people watched NASCAR at all before Brian France took over since it was so boring.
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There was some good racing back then but a majority of the races were snooze fests. They were nowhere near as competitive as what we have now. Stages improved racing a 110%. One of the worst things back then the Chevy people would whine the Fords had an unfair advantage so Nascar would make changes what seemed like every other week. Or vice versa. That was crazy. Yeah there was a lot of questionable stuff back then it is a wonder anyone thinks those were the days. Much better now. If you don't really like it so much you can always turn the channel. That's what I did when I lost interest.
 
10-4 said:
There was some good racing back then but a majority of the races were snooze fests. They were nowhere near as competitive as what we have now. Stages improved racing a 110%. One of the worst things back then the Chevy people would whine the Fords had an unfair advantage so Nascar would make changes what seemed like every other week. Or vice versa. That was crazy. Yeah there was a lot of questionable stuff back then it is a wonder anyone thinks those were the days. Much better now. If you don't really like it so much you can always turn the channel. That's what I did when I lost interest.
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The GM teams seemed to switch brands every year to whatever Pontiac, Olds, Buick, or Chevy was the slipperiest. The 90's on up was when all you heard was aero tight or aero loose, then the twisted sisters. People wern't around then or how soon they forget.
 
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