NASCAR Death Bed

I know these type of sponsorship announcements are noteworthy for some people. Some others want to pop the hood and see what is underneath it all.

As far as I am concerned both ways of looking at it are fine and can be discussed calmly.
 
I am really pleased for JJ and HMS that an arm of Government Motors could sign on for 2 seasons.

I will let Barney Visser answer how high he thinks big companies are on NASCAR.

As far as owners go I don’t think we believe what Barney Visser or Joe Gibbs says. Do we believe Rick Hendrick. It’s a goose/gander type thing
 
Ally is not a General Motors subsidiary or related company.

You lament not knowing how valuable the sponsorship is. Hendrick says it’s the best he’s seen since DuPont.
 
My apologies for spreading false info about Ally. This deal with the 48 car could be the catalyst for other big dollar deals with other teams. Let’s all hope so!
 
aunty dive said:
Ally is not a General Motors subsidiary or related company.

You lament not knowing how valuable the sponsorship is. Hendrick says it’s the best he’s seen since DuPont.
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Aunty, why bother trying to refute? Obviously the reporting of Bob Pockrass is as false, deceptive, and agenda-driven as the reporting of Adam Stern, that other scoundrel of the motorsports world. ( Link )
 
When Barney Visser was quoted about closing down and the the alliance with JGR many said he was lying. I have no reason to believe Barney was lying just like I have no reason to believe Rick Hendrick is lying.

I guess you decide these sorts of things on what suits your point at the time.
 
IanMcVittie said:
I will let Barney Visser answer how high he thinks big companies are on NASCAR.
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Maybe the question you should be asking is why is HMS able to sign a new sponsor like this and Visser wasn't. I don't know the answer to this, but is there another NASCAR team that puts as many resources into marketing and sponsor recruitment? My guess is no. MAYBE Penske.
 
Formerjackman said:
Maybe the question you should be asking is why is HMS able to sign a new sponsor like this and Visser wasn't. I don't know the answer to this, but is there another NASCAR team that puts as many resources into marketing and sponsor recruitment? My guess is no. MAYBE Penske.
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Lowe's announced they were leaving HMS in March. 5HE announced they were leaving FRR in July. Barney has said they didn't have enough time to put a deal together.
 
I think some very good points have been made about HMS &Ally as well as the differences between the Visser situation.

I owe a lot of whatever successes I have had in life to relationship building and I think that is a strong point of Rick Hendrick and HMS. I am impressed that in this climate a full sponsorship could be had and obviously the dollars work for both sides.
 
AuzGrams said:
Lowe's announced they were leaving HMS in March. 5HE announced they were leaving FRR in July. Barney has said they didn't have enough time to put a deal together.
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True, but they also said that multiple firms were interested, so who knows how fast a deal COULD have been put together if the situation called for it.
 
Formerjackman said:
True, but they also said that multiple firms were interested, so who knows how fast a deal COULD have been put together if the situation called for it.
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Lots of teams could make deals everyday but if the paycheck isn't big enough why Race from your own pocket.
Lets remember that the family business doesn't want to pay for his hobby.
 
Well you know what I would tell the family. I made this money and I'll spend it any damn way I choose. Don't like it? Go find your own damn money. No, my point was, yes, HMS had more time to find a replacement sponsor than FRR did, but that doesn't mean they needed it, and we'll likely never know. The Ally deal was most likely the best offer they got, but that doesn't mean they couldn't have signed two or tree smaller deals and gotten just as much money if they needed too. Our resident sponsor guru could tell us a LOT more about this, but what I do know of HMS and likely some others, is that no matter how many sponsors they have and how fully funded they are, they NEVER stop trying to put more deals together and have a short list of companies they could probably got to on short notice and get at least SOME funding. They are never just sitting around waiting for deals to fall into their lap.
 
Formerjackman said:
Well you know what I would tell the family. I made this money and I'll spend it any damn way I choose. Don't like it? Go find your own damn money. No, my point was, yes, HMS had more time to find a replacement sponsor than FRR did, but that doesn't mean they needed it, and we'll likely never know. The Ally deal was most likely the best offer they got, but that doesn't mean they couldn't have signed two or tree smaller deals and gotten just as much money if they needed too. Our resident sponsor guru could tell us a LOT more about this, but what I do know of HMS and likely some others, is that no matter how many sponsors they have and how fully funded they are, they NEVER stop trying to put more deals together and have a short list of companies they could probably got to on short notice and get at least SOME funding. They are never just sitting around waiting for deals to fall into their lap.
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Johnson said he is working on more sponsorship, contingency sponsors to go on the sides. He said some of his are up at the end of the year. Big difference in that Hendrick is a very large stand alone independent team, and the other was an affiliate and a very small one at that, too dependent IMO on the whims of sponsors and the mother ship who both decided to change the game. Left him high and dry without a paddle. He could survive one loss but both while throwing a heart attack in the middle. nope.
 
Formerjackman said:
Well you know what I would tell the family. I made this money and I'll spend it any damn way I choose. Don't like it? Go find your own damn money. No, my point was, yes, HMS had more time to find a replacement sponsor than FRR did, but that doesn't mean they needed it, and we'll likely never know. The Ally deal was most likely the best offer they got, but that doesn't mean they couldn't have signed two or tree smaller deals and gotten just as much money if they needed too. Our resident sponsor guru could tell us a LOT more about this, but what I do know of HMS and likely some others, is that no matter how many sponsors they have and how fully funded they are, they NEVER stop trying to put more deals together and have a short list of companies they could probably got to on short notice and get at least SOME funding. They are never just sitting around waiting for deals to fall into their lap.
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I agree that the sponsorship HMS got for the 48 car was probably the best fit overall. It would interesting to know what dollar figure a sponsorship like this sells for as it is unlikely the 18 million a year Lowe’s reportedly paid at one point.

You bring up good points about being proactive in establishing beneficial relationships which HMS surely does. On the other hand Visser sounded like he was ill prepared for the possibility of losing sponsorship which he blamed for the demise of his team.

Blaming heart attacks and JGR are just excuses for not being prepared.
 
IanMcVittie said:
I agree that the sponsorship HMS got for the 48 car was probably the best fit overall. It would interesting to know what dollar figure a sponsorship like this sells for as it is unlikely the 18 million a year Lowe’s reportedly paid at one point.

You bring up good points about being proactive in establishing beneficial relationships which HMS surely does. On the other hand Visser sounded like he was ill prepared for the possibility of losing sponsorship which he blamed for the demise of his team.

Blaming heart attacks and JGR are just excuses for not being prepared.
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that is a new one one me. A heart attack is an excuse for not being prepared? :confused: not to mention industry insiders saying his affiliate franchise bill was tripled.
 
Furniture Row isn't getting the ROI they used to and Barney is trying to turn over the company to the family, it's been said here a while back.

I'm not sure what obligation he has to NASCAR compared to Rick Hendrick, Roger Penske who have been in the business for numbers of years.
 
AuzGrams said:
Furniture Row isn't getting the ROI they used to and Barney is trying to turn over the company to the family, it's been said here a while back.

I'm not sure what obligation he has to NASCAR compared to Rick Hendrick, Roger Penske who have been in the business for numbers of years.
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I believe in one of the other threads Barney or an FRR employee mentioned NASCAR ratings as one reason Furniture Row didn’t want to jump back in. I will see if I can find it.
 
StandOnIt said:
that is a new one one me. A heart attack is an excuse for not being prepared? :confused: not to mention industry insiders saying his affiliate franchise bill was tripled.
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I guess my question is, in the entire history of FRR, how much sponsorship did they ever actively bring into the team? For years I'm not sure Visser either wanted or cared about that. Didn't Truex bring in Bass Pro? Was 5 hour Energy a deal the team did, or did that basically come as a package when the Jones Boy was there? I know they had had a couple other deals, but I just have to think that Visser never put in the infrastructure to try to prevent getting caught short like some of the other teams do. You also have the fact that they seemed pretty determined to remain a one car team, which makes it that much harder to weather a storm, so not to slam the guy, but I think Visser has to take a pretty good chunk of the blame for what ended up happening.
 
Formerjackman said:
I guess my question is, in the entire history of FRR, how much sponsorship did they ever actively bring into the team? For years I'm not sure Visser either wanted or cared about that. Didn't Truex bring in Bass Pro? Was 5 hour Energy a deal the team did, or did that basically come as a package when the Jones Boy was there? I know they had had a couple other deals, but I just have to think that Visser never put in the infrastructure to try to prevent getting caught short like some of the other teams do. You also have the fact that they seemed pretty determined to remain a one car team, which makes it that much harder to weather a storm, so not to slam the guy, but I think Visser has to take a pretty good chunk of the blame for what ended up happening.
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Well said and if you really want something in NASCAR’s current climate you have to be aggressive. The days of sitting around your desk fielding offers from sponsors is long gone.

That may not be how Barney is wired and it is probably the same for Jack Roush. I think he put 5 cars in the chase one year and now is an also ran because of lack of preparation
 
Visser's team didn't have the sales and marketing resources of HMS, nor did they have as much time to find a replacement for 5 Hour Energy compared to the Lowe's departure. They still guaranteed to the world that they would be on the track in 2019 and beyond.

When The Preacher added an extra $8 - $10 million blood money hit, the two financial blows pushed Visser over the edge. The Preacher didn't get the extra money, but he did accomplish his goal... no more competition from the 78. That's how I see it as a former admirer of Joe Gibbs.
 
LewTheShoe said:
Visser's team didn't have the sales and marketing resources of HMS, nor did they have as much time to find a replacement for 5 Hour Energy compared to the Lowe's departure. They still guaranteed to the world that they would be on the track in 2019 and beyond.

When The Preacher added an extra $8 - $10 million blood money hit, the two financial blows pushed Visser over the edge. The Preacher didn't get the extra money, but he did accomplish his goal... no more competition from the 78. That's how I see it as a former admirer of Joe Gibbs.
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I respect your opinions but am seeking a clarification regarding blood money.

What was a fair price for JGR to provide the essentials for a competitor to field a championship caliber team?

Would any increase in the alliance fee have been ok or should the fee have been structured in a way Visser could afford?

In the real world a move like this would have been seen as a wise move. Why not in this case?

I am all ears for anyone who wishes to shed light on what JGR did wrong.
 
IanMcVittie said:
I respect your opinions but am seeking a clarification regarding blood money.

What was a fair price for JGR to provide the essentials for a competitor to field a championship caliber team?

Would any increase in the alliance fee have been ok or should the fee have been structured in a way Visser could afford?

In the real world a move like this would have been seen as a wise move. Why not in this case?

I am all ears for anyone who wishes to shed light on what JGR did wrong.
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your missing the point. It isn't a matter of what was done wrong legally, capitalism has certain rules for what is wrong, but price gouging usually isn't one of them, it is called free market, leveraged buy outs, etc. The outcome of what Joe Gibbs did was a dirty underhanded move by many in the sport opinions, but a perfectly legal way to eliminate the competition and get a good team in the balance. Morally, for a man who appears to live by christian values and the laws of fair play, it makes the sting just a little more valid for some of us. I myself go way back with Joe Gibbs and I don't care who knows about it. He did Tony and Zippy wrong when Tony left and Gibbs wouldn't let Zippy his best friend go along with Tony and forced him to stay another year. Gibbs is doing the same thing with Arris and Suarez right now.
 
ISC has bought Racing Electronics and it takes effect next year. I wonder what effect this could have on pricing? Very, very interesting IMHO.

 
StandOnIt said:
your missing the point. It isn't a matter of what was done wrong legally, capitalism has certain rules for what is wrong, but price gouging usually isn't one of them, it is called free market, leveraged buy outs, etc. The outcome of what Joe Gibbs did was a dirty underhanded move by many in the sport opinions, but a perfectly legal way to eliminate the competition and get a good team in the balance. Morally, for a man who appears to live by christian values and the laws of fair play, it makes the sting just a little more valid for some of us. I myself go way back with Joe Gibbs and I don't care who knows about it. He did Tony and Zippy wrong when Tony left and Gibbs wouldn't let Zippy his best friend go along with Tony and forced him to stay another year. Gibbs is doing the same thing with Arris and Suarez right now.
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I see your points. In retrospect it probably would have been better for JGR just to have said they didn’t want to participate in anymore alliances and left it at that.

I remember Jeff Gordon losing a race to Bobby Labonte and when asked about it he said it was hard beating your own stuff. JGR was still getting engines from HMS at that time.
 
IanMcVittie said:
I respect your opinions but am seeking a clarification regarding blood money.

What was a fair price for JGR to provide the essentials for a competitor to field a championship caliber team?

Would any increase in the alliance fee have been ok or should the fee have been structured in a way Visser could afford?

In the real world a move like this would have been seen as a wise move. Why not in this case?

I am all ears for anyone who wishes to shed light on what JGR did wrong.
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According to Sports Business Journal and other reliable industry sources, Gibbs was charging $3 to $4 million for the technical alliance. That covered his costs plus profit margin. For 2019, Gibbs jacked that number up by an *extra* $8 to $10 million. The direct result is... Furniture Row Racing is out of business. Is that predatory pricing? Is that Blood Money? Yes, it is in my opinion.

Not only is FRR the loser, but also Sugar Daddy Toyota is weakened, as is the entire sport.

Thankfully, Roger Penske found a way to avoid jacking up the Wood Brothers costs by $10 million when the 21 whipped the 2 and 22 numerous times in recent years. It benefits Ford, and the sport of Nascar.
 
A whole lot of difference there. Never seen Hendrick pull crew members from an affiliate, or heard of any affiliate having their contract upped three times what it was the last year when Harvick was beating all of the Hendrick cars and winning a cup title. Haven't heard any of that about Childress's affiliates either, in fact Childress furnished some of Ty's pit crew to Germain to help that team when they were having trouble with pit stops.
 
The crew members worked for SHR and were employees for SHR. They didn't work for Ricky.
 
LewTheShoe said:
According to Sports Business Journal and other reliable industry sources, Gibbs was charging $3 to $4 million for the technical alliance. That covered his costs plus profit margin. For 2019, Gibbs jacked that number up by an *extra* $8 to $10 million. The direct result is... Furniture Row Racing is out of business. Is that predatory pricing? Is that Blood Money? Yes, it is in my opinion.

Not only is FRR the loser, but also Sugar Daddy Toyota is weakened, as is the entire sport.

Thankfully, Roger Penske found a way to avoid jacking up the Wood Brothers costs by $10 million when the 21 whipped the 2 and 22 numerous times in recent years. It benefits Ford, and the sport of Nascar.
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I appreciate your answers I believe I understand where you are coming from. One thing that surprised me was that Toyota didn’t intervene in the situation and smooth things over.

If JGR had some legal or moral obligation to keep the 78 car afloat I would be outraged. However as I see it NASCAR is a business, JGR is a business, FRR is a business and a business decision was made. Unless contractually obligated no team should be responsible for keeping another afloat. JMO
 
IanMcVittie said:
I appreciate your answers I believe I understand where you are coming from. One thing that surprised me was that Toyota didn’t intervene in the situation and smooth things over.

If JGR had some legal or moral obligation to keep the 78 car afloat I would be outraged. However as I see it NASCAR is a business, JGR is a business, FRR is a business and a business decision was made. Unless contractually obligated no team should be responsible for keeping another afloat. JMO
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But one team can price the other out of the series and that is fine. Might be to you and a very few others in the jus bidness realm, but most of us look at the outcome. How do you explain right after Front Rows demise, Toyota is announcing a partnership with Gibbs and Leavine Family Racing for next year. Ya think they will do for Toyota and JGR what Front Row did for them? No way they are paying to play what Gibbs demanded from Front Row..and Toyota gets a back marker. Pretty dumb greedy move that backfired.
 
IanMcVittie said:
Well said and if you really want something in NASCAR’s current climate you have to be aggressive. The days of sitting around your desk fielding offers from sponsors is long gone.

That may not be how Barney is wired and it is probably the same for Jack Roush. I think he put 5 cars in the chase one year and now is an also ran because of lack of preparation
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Jack's big mistake was selling and his partner controls the office and all that is entailed.
Jack was a racing man, that's all he wanted to do was race.( besides being a business man and running a very successful company outside of Nascar) Also consider that other race teams didn't like Jack coming in and beating them on a regular basis.

As far as Barney goes, if all he wanted was a racing hobby, that is up to him. But lets face it, once he decided to grow with the help of Toyota and JGR, he did a bang up job. I doubt anyone thought he would win a championship.
Now that he has had a heart attack, there is no one who can blame him from backing away from the stress of owning a race team. Drivers who have raced for years have lost everything trying.
 
Towmater said:
The crew members worked for SHR and were employees for SHR. They didn't work for Ricky.
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I do believe there were HMS engineers and possibly other shop people assigned to SHR, at least early on, and say early on, because myself and seemingly everybody else seem to forget that what we know as SHR was around for several years before Tony came over, and HMS supplied equipment and technical support then too. In fact, for those that weren't around, in the beginning (2002) The Haas CNC Cup team was nothing but one of the HMS Busch Series teams with Jack Sprague as driver and Dennis Connor as crew chief that Rick sold to Gene. The sponsor (Net Zero) came over from HMS, and they even rented a shop from Hendrick at first. Some of those employees that were working with SHR stayed, causing a real talent drain at HMS in my opinion.
 
StandOnIt said:
But one team can price the other out of the series and that is fine. Might be to you and a very few others in the jus bidness realm, but most of us look at the outcome. How do you explain right after Front Rows demise, Toyota is announcing a partnership with Gibbs and Leavine Family Racing for next year. Ya think they will do for Toyota and JGR what Front Row did for them? No way they are paying to play what Gibbs demanded from Front Row..and Toyota gets a back marker. Pretty dumb greedy move that backfired.
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It doesn’t matter to me what is wise or what is dumb or who comes or goes. The market will sort all that out and if you are dependent on a crutch to remain competitive or in business you won’t be in business for the long haul.

So far everyone has skirted the question about what a fair price should have been for the alliance? Should it have basically been about whatever Barney could afford?
 
IanMcVittie said:
It doesn’t matter to me what is wise or what is dumb or who comes or goes. The market will sort all that out and if you are dependent on a crutch to remain competitive or in business you won’t be in business for the long haul.

So far everyone has skirted the question about what a fair price should have been for the alliance? Should it have basically been about whatever Barney could afford?
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nobody is skirting anything. Gibbs upped his fee three times what it was, and his sponsor left. He assured his team that he was going to buckle down on expenses and race in 2019 without his sponsor, had a business plan budget and everything. And then Gibbs blew it out of the water with his deal.
 
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