NASCAR Death Bed

One thing that I think some people miss is that while racing is a business, and a BIG business, it is also a sport. I'm as big of a free market capitalist as you'll likely find here, but in sports unlike regular business, putting your competitors out of business is not a good thing. The NFL has a salary cap because if they didn't about one third of the teams would be out of business or HOPELESSLY uncompetitive, which would hurt the league terribly. I don't think a salary cap in racing is a good idea, and you have to look out for yourself first, but that doesn't mean you wipe other guys off the map, either. Not to toot his horn any more than I already do, but in the case of Rick Hendrick, he has helped probably a half dozen or so Cup teams get off the ground over the years, INCLUDING Felix Sabates, Joe Gibbs, MB2 and Gene Haas. Supposedly even helped out Blue Max during Rusty's 1989 title run because Raymond Beadle was in bad financial straits. That is guy that understands that the sport NEEDS more and prosperous teams to not only survive, but to thrive.
 
StandOnIt said:
nobody is skirting anything. Gibbs upped his fee three times what it was, and his sponsor left. He assured his team that he was going to buckle down on expenses and race in 2019 without his sponsor, had a business plan budget and everything. And then Gibbs blew it out of the water with his deal.
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Should JGR checked with Barney to see what he could afford and work the deal from that point. If Barney needed a reduction to stay in business JGR lowered the price? I’m trying to get a handle on what JGR’s obligation was and no one is saying.
Formerjackman said:
One thing that I think some people miss is that while racing is a business, and a BIG business, it is also a sport. I'm as big of a free market capitalist as you'll likely find here, but in sports unlike regular business, putting your competitors out of business is not a good thing. The NFL has a salary cap because if they didn't about one third of the teams would be out of business or HOPELESSLY uncompetitive, which would hurt the league terribly. I don't think a salary cap in racing is a good idea, and you have to look out for yourself first, but that doesn't mean you wipe other guys off the map, either. Not to toot his horn any more than I already do, but in the case of Rick Hendrick, he has helped probably a half dozen or so Cup teams get off the ground over the years, INCLUDING Felix Sabates, Joe Gibbs, MB2 and Gene Haas. Supposedly even helped out Blue Max during Rusty's 1989 title run because Raymond Beadle was in bad financial straits. That is guy that understands that the sport NEEDS more and prosperous teams to not only survive, but to thrive.
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In your opinion what would have been the fair thing for JGR to do?
 
I understand about salary caps that allow Green Bay to compete with New York and it is a system that works well. However NewYork doesn’t have to share coaches, play books, and provide weekly tutelage to help Green Bay best them each week.

Although no one has said it I get the vibe that many feel JGR needed to do whatever necessary to keep Barney in business. If all he could afford for the services was 2 million then so be it.

A hand up is one thing but welfare is another animal.
 
^ I feel no such vibe, not one iota of it. Furthermore, it's a ridiculous question you're asking over and over... what the price should be. But given the actual numbers reported by reliable industry insiders, and the actual consequences, I'll say the price should not have been that. It was predatory... it was Blood Money.
 
IanMcVittie said:
I understand about salary caps that allow Green Bay to compete with New York and it is a system that works well. However NewYork doesn’t have to share coaches, play books, and provide weekly tutelage to help Green Bay best them each week.

Although no one has said it I get the vibe that many feel JGR needed to do whatever necessary to keep Barney in business. If all he could afford for the services was 2 million then so be it.

A hand up is one thing but welfare is another animal.
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Knowing the situation. Gibbs COULD have scaled back the price hike until Visser could get another sponsor in place. He COULD have used the resources of JGR to help FRR find some more sponsorship, Probably lots of things he COULD have done, but at least as far as we know, didn't. Ultimately, can you say as a result of what happened that JGR, (lost a valuable customer), Toyota or the sport are better off? Whatever JGR will get in in 2019 looks to be less than what they would have gotten from FRR, even without jacking the price to the moon, and how much value will LFR be to JGR feedback wise over a championship contending team like the 78? Other than eliminating a competitor, how is this a good thing for JGR?
 
StandOnIt said:
who's on first?
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I think blood money is on first and Barney struck out:)
Formerjackman said:
Knowing the situation. Gibbs COULD have scaled back the price hike until Visser could get another sponsor in place. He COULD have used the resources of JGR to help FRR find some more sponsorship, Probably lots of things he COULD have done, but at least as far as we know, didn't. Ultimately, can you say as a result of what happened that JGR, (lost a valuable customer), Toyota or the sport are better off? Whatever JGR will get in in 2019 looks to be less than what they would have gotten from FRR, even without jacking the price to the moon, and how much value will LFR be to JGR feedback wise over a championship contending team like the 78? Other than eliminating a competitor, how is this a good thing for JGR?
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I appreciate your answer as it makes sense and doesn’t resort to hyperbole or being shrill.

No question JGR could have done more but the mystery to me is why Toyota did nothing. Afterall they are the stock that stirs the drink and the drink.
 
Framing the act of not raising the price of a service by 300% as "welfare" is the most hyperbolic statement I've read on the subject.

Nobody has questioned that JGR has the legal right as a company to price their services however they choose to. Some have judged their completely legal actions and find them distasteful, me included. That's it. I'm not that concerned with it anymore personally, as racing is a tough business, FRR is long gone in terms of 2019, and there were other faults with Visser's approach that contributed to the organization's demise.

However, if a few JGR loyalists keep insisting that JGR did absolutely nothing to contribute to FRR's closure, there will continue to be pushback. Because that's an absurd claim.
 
I think the only person that said that JGR didn’t help in FRR’s demise is Barney Visser and a lot of people said he was lying. Barney even said the price JGR was asking was fair but he must have been lying about that too.

I appreciate all the input on this subject as the issue itself and the thought process of forum members has been very interesting.
 
Formerjackman said:
I do believe there were HMS engineers and possibly other shop people assigned to SHR, at least early on, and say early on, because myself and seemingly everybody else seem to forget that what we know as SHR was around for several years before Tony came over, and HMS supplied equipment and technical support then too. In fact, for those that weren't around, in the beginning (2002) The Haas CNC Cup team was nothing but one of the HMS Busch Series teams with Jack Sprague as driver and Dennis Connor as crew chief that Rick sold to Gene. The sponsor (Net Zero) came over from HMS, and they even rented a shop from Hendrick at first. Some of those employees that were working with SHR stayed, causing a real talent drain at HMS in my opinion.
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My point was in reference to a post about JGR suspending members of the 78 car's crew. They did so because they were employees of JGR and they got into a verbal altercation with another employee of JGR.
 
Towmater said:
My point was in reference to a post about JGR suspending members of the 78 car's crew. They did so because they were employees of JGR and they got into a verbal altercation with another employee of JGR.
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As I got deeper into the conversation about FRR/JGR it became clear that some people felt it was JGR’s responsibility to keep FRR afloat.

As near as I can tell not much will change as the 78 team will replace the non performing 19 team and Suurez will end up elsewhere. Hopefully it will work out as good for Suarez as it did for JLo.

In the end it seems like a lot of handwringing and gnashing of teeth over very little.
 
IanMcVittie said:
As I got deeper into the conversation about FRR/JGR it became clear that some people felt it was JGR’s responsibility to keep FRR afloat.

As near as I can tell not much will change as the 78 team will replace the non performing 19 team and Suurez will end up elsewhere. Hopefully it will work out as good for Suarez as it did for JLo.

In the end it seems like a lot of handwringing and gnashing of teeth over very little.
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The only people hurt in this move was the shop guys who lost their jobs. In order to stay in Nascar, they would have to relocate their families.
 
There are many things in life worse than living in Colorado.
 
IanMcVittie said:
As I got deeper into the conversation about FRR/JGR it became clear that some people felt it was JGR’s responsibility to keep FRR afloat.

As near as I can tell not much will change as the 78 team will replace the non performing 19 team and Suurez will end up elsewhere. Hopefully it will work out as good for Suarez as it did for JLo.

In the end it seems like a lot of handwringing and gnashing of teeth over very little.
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It's a narrative that supports a dislike for Toyota/JGR. Barney himself said that the price JGR was charging was not an issue. Look, JGR was as happy about FRR winning the title as Hendrick was when Tony won. Similar accusations thrown around then sans this enormous price increase. Additionally, I am sure the JGR didn't like losing the exclusivity that they sought when they left Chevy, but to characterized this organization the way some around here do is just flat insane. To some, Coach should let every one of his drivers drive for him as long as they choose, and he should support his satellite teams unconditionally--even encourage their manufacturer to hand money to them. Silly.
 
I've never seen Visser quoted as stating the JGR increase "was not an issue". He was quoted in the Pockrass ESPN article as follows:

"What Joe Gibbs was talking about wasn't ridiculous," Visser said of the alliance fee. "His numbers were purely objective. ... What we couldn't agree on was how much we brought to them and how much that was worth spread over four cars. That was subjective.
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Translating "wasn't ridiculous" followed by details on disagreements to "not an issue" seems a stretch.

Obviously 5-Hour's departure was a huge financial blow. Nobody disputes this. Meanwhile, @Allenbaba posted the following:

Allenbaba said:
JGR's increase was absolutely, positively, without a doubt the biggest reason FRR is gone today. That's a fact jack.
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Is he misinformed?

Revman said:
Look, JGR was as happy about FRR winning the title as Hendrick was when Tony won. Similar accusations thrown around then sans this enormous price increase. Additionally, I am sure the JGR didn't like losing the exclusivity that they sought when they left Chevy, but to characterized this organization the way some around here do is just flat insane. To some, Coach should let every one of his drivers drive for him as long as they choose, and he should support his satellite teams unconditionally--even encourage their manufacturer to hand money to them. Silly.
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The rest of the post is more realistic. Slanted, but quite honest about the realities of why nobody likes to be beat by their junior partners, and how such an arrangement will never survive. I think JGR supporters should just go with this angle.
 
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IanMcVittie said:
As I got deeper into the conversation about FRR/JGR it became clear that some people felt it was JGR’s responsibility to keep FRR afloat.
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Where are these people saying it was JGR’s responsibility to keep FRR afloat? Please quote their posts or provide links. Thank you.
 
What's interesting is that people gloss over the fact that in the official statement from Furniture Row the entity thanked for help winning a championship and being competitive is Joe Gibbs Racing.

I don't even like anyone who races for JGR but can see that's a pretty big road sign/indicator of what's going on behind the scenes as FRR/Visser didn't have to do that.
 
That doesn't mean a whole lot. Furniture Row has a lot of employees looking for jobs in the industry. It isn't good business to trash another.
 
You can generate a statement to keep a party that you dislike out of it or put them in it in a way that you don't highlight them in a positive way. Visser didn't do that in any of his statement(s).
 
LewTheShoe said:
Where are these people saying it was JGR’s responsibility to keep FRR afloat? Please quote their posts or provide links. Thank you.
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If I had said that you believed that JGR was responsible for keeping FRR afloat that would have been unacceptable. However you can say things like “some people” as you are not singling an individual out. Don’t be mad at me as I don’t make the rules I just follow them.
 
IanMcVittie said:
If I had said that you believed that JGR was responsible for keeping FRR afloat that would have been unacceptable. However you can say things like “some people” as you are not singling an individual out. Don’t be mad at me as I don’t make the rules I just follow them.
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People said" Gibbs was trying to charge 3 prices for 2019, People said 5 hour energy is leaving after 2018. That is what people said.
 
@IanMcVittie ...

(1) Gibbs obviously did not have a responsibility to do whatever it takes to keep FRR intact. Believing otherwise would be outlandish, ignorant, and worthy of ridicule.

(2) You have posted over and over again that many members and/or some members believe exactly that... at least four or five posts in this thread in the last 24 hours.

(3) I asked you to quote the posts or provide links to support your claim, but you dodged the question.

(4) So I repeat... Where are these people saying it was JGR’s responsibility to keep FRR afloat? Quote their posts or provide links.
 
“As I got deeper into the conversation about FRR/JGR it became clear that some people felt it was JGR’s responsibility to keep FRR afloat.”

Sometimes things are clear not by what is said but by what is not said.
 
Heard back in July they were unhappy because they have lost tons of money every year. A billion dollar industry in the early 00's to under 500 million and losing money every year.

https://twitter.com/A_S12
 
It is honestly sad that things have fallen so much that the merchandiser bailed four years into a ten-year deal. Say what you want about tents, haulers, doesn't look good, costs too much, this just isn't a good look:

Sagging attendance has hurt original financial projections for the deal, and with Fanatics unable to restructure the pact, the company decided to nix the entire deal including with tracks.
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Business is business and JGR doesn't owe anyone favors. Rick Hendrick wasn't doing favors that was business. Barney made a business decision to close up shop and I dont see anyone here asking him why he couldn't do a favor and dig deep. Since we don't know any numbers here, not to mention how many of you own Nascar teams(?), you can't really say one way or another somebody could have done this or that. That's not your money on the line.
 
10-4 said:
Business is business and JGR doesn't owe anyone favors. Rick Hendrick wasn't doing favors that was business. Barney made a business decision to close up shop and I dont see anyone here asking him why he couldn't do a favor and dig deep. Since we don't know any numbers here, not to mention how many of you own Nascar teams(?), you can't really say one way or another somebody could have done this or that. That's not your money on the line.
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there are people here that are in the business.
 
Yeah I knew that but how many of them do you think actually know the real numbers here? I'm not in this business but I run a business and there's no shortage of people out there in mine who are FOS and glad to tell you wrong ways to run your business. Numbers are important and it's highly doubtful anyone on this forum is privy to JGR's numbers. Edited: and it also might very well not even be about the numbers. Perhaps Joe decided he was tired of the Furniture Row competition getting his wins. And that is his prerogative too.
 
it has been reported from multiple sources that JGR raised his fee by three times what it was the year before. Believe it or not.
 
Ok well I have seen insurance costs for some people nearly double over the past several years in my line of work. Everything goes up all the time. That's a given. But like I said if Joe decides he doesn't really need the partnership with them anymore then that is just how the world works.
 
10-4 said:
Business is business and JGR doesn't owe anyone favors. Rick Hendrick wasn't doing favors that was business. Barney made a business decision to close up shop and I dont see anyone here asking him why he couldn't do a favor and dig deep. Since we don't know any numbers here, not to mention how many of you own Nascar teams(?), you can't really say one way or another somebody could have done this or that. That's not your money on the line.
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Agreed.

I was refuting the notion that the reported 300% increase in JGR's alliance fee for FRR:

a. Wasn't an important factor in FRR closing

and

b. Wasn't a conscious and purposeful move on JGR's part to eliminate the unwanted competition.

They had every right to do so. And fans of a spectator sport can form opinions accordingly.
 
FLRacingFan said:
It is honestly sad that things have fallen so much that the merchandiser bailed four years into a ten-year deal. Say what you want about tents, haulers, doesn't look good, costs too much, this just isn't a good look:
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No it doesn't. Might be why all the people that think everything in NASCAR land is A-OK want to chat about something else besides this latest news.
 
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