NASCAR’s personality problem

I'm older than most on here. I grew up watching Richard Petty, David Pearson, Bobby Allison, Buddy Baker, and the likes. I thought those were tough, fearless men. Even though the sport became more commercialized, you still had Dale Earnhardt, Terry Labonte, Bill Elliott, and the likes that were also considered tough. Jeff Gordon was never considered that, but he captured a new generation of fans that helped the sport explode because it was a stark difference between he and Earnhardt.

It wasn't until you started seeing Jimmie Johnson, Matt Kenseth, and drivers like that who were great drivers, but didn't come off as tough. Then you had the wave of unproven kids that got rides because they had sponsors and not resumes. Going into the early 2000's, you thought those drivers were risking injuries and even their lives to race. Once Earnhardt was killed followed by Adam Petty, NASCAR has taken a lot of danger out of the sport. Too many drivers seem like rented suits these days and fans have a hard time connecting with that.
 
MRM said:
I'm older than most on here. I grew up watching Richard Petty, David Pearson, Bobby Allison, Buddy Baker, and the likes. I thought those were tough, fearless men. Even though the sport became more commercialized, you still had Dale Earnhardt, Terry Labonte, Bill Elliott, and the likes that were also considered tough. Jeff Gordon was never considered that, but he captured a new generation of fans that helped the sport explode because it was a stark difference between he and Earnhardt.

It wasn't until you started seeing Jimmie Johnson, Matt Kenseth, and drivers like that who were great drivers, but didn't come off as tough. Then you had the wave of unproven kids that got rides because they had sponsors and not resumes. Going into the early 2000's, you thought those drivers were risking injuries and even their lives to race. Once Earnhardt was killed followed by Adam Petty, NASCAR has taken a lot of danger out of the sport. Too many drivers seem like rented suits these days and fans have a hard time connecting with that.
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The genie can't be put back in the bottle. Early races were promoted as being dangerous and death defying. Drivers did die. I came from those times also so I can relate. But when a couple of my favorite drivers died, Tiny Lund and Fireball Roberts it sucked badly. It wasn't what attracted me to the sport, but yeah, I'm sure it attracted others because of that aspect.
The right sizing of the series that works for me is that the boomers that made the sport, many have aged out. That large group/population bubble of post war babies, hasn't been duplicated population wise from Gen X,Y, Z or whatever. Of course other factors are at play also, less car culture, wage gap disparity, less leisure time, etc. Most look no farther than Nascar and they go on and on, when in fact the whole racing industry have had the same thing happen world wide.

Bottom line? There will always be racing fans.
 
StandOnIt said:
That large group/population bubble of post war babies, hasn't been duplicated population wise from Gen X,Y, Z or whatever. Of course other factors are at play also, less car culture, wage gap disparity, less leisure time, etc. Most look no farther than Nascar and they go on and on, when in fact the whole racing industry have had the same thing happen world wide.
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Yeah, it's disappointing. When I was a little kid, my dad would watch most Sundays and pull for Rusty. My older brother was exposed to it, and became an Earnhardt fan. I was exposed to it, and became an Irvan fan (and later a Gordon fan in '93). I was instantly attracted to auto racing at a very young age, and as I grew up and got more and more consumed with NASCAR, I was hooked.

We constantly talk about NASCAR's core fanbase growing older and older. It would be nice if they could get their kids and grandkids interested, but whatever the reason may be, that fandom wasn't always passed along to the younger generations. Of course, people like us on R-F will always enjoy motorsports, and some people will never like it no matter how much they are exposed to it.

Like you said, there are tons of factors, and only so many that NASCAR can control.
 
2 Sweet said:
Yeah, it's disappointing. When I was a little kid, my dad would watch most Sundays and pull for Rusty. My older brother was exposed to it, and became an Earnhardt fan. I was exposed to it, and became an Irvan fan (and later a Gordon fan in '93). I was instantly attracted to auto racing at a very young age, and as I grew up and got more and more consumed with NASCAR, I was hooked.

We constantly talk about NASCAR's core fanbase growing older and older. It would be nice if they could get their kids and grandkids interested, but whatever the reason may be, that fandom wasn't always passed along to the younger generations. Of course, people like us on R-F will always enjoy motorsports, and some people will never like it no matter how much they are exposed to it.

Like you said, there are tons of factors, and only so many that NASCAR can control.
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Nascar tries to make the racing as close and competitive as possible. They have been outlawing parts, pieces, and motors since the 50's. I posted a clip in the random thread about the motor wars that got so heated the Mopars left the sport back in the mid 60's, and were let back in when they reduced the cubic inches of their Hemi motor in order to compete fairly. It has taken a firm hand to keep what they can under control. This last year Hendrick felt the wrath of Nascar when they said don't mess with the car, they meant it.
 
MRM said:
I'm older than most on here. I grew up watching Richard Petty, David Pearson, Bobby Allison, Buddy Baker, and the likes. I thought those were tough, fearless men. Even though the sport became more commercialized, you still had Dale Earnhardt, Terry Labonte, Bill Elliott, and the likes that were also considered tough. Jeff Gordon was never considered that, but he captured a new generation of fans that helped the sport explode because it was a stark difference between he and Earnhardt.

It wasn't until you started seeing Jimmie Johnson, Matt Kenseth, and drivers like that who were great drivers, but didn't come off as tough. Then you had the wave of unproven kids that got rides because they had sponsors and not resumes. Going into the early 2000's, you thought those drivers were risking injuries and even their lives to race. Once Earnhardt was killed followed by Adam Petty, NASCAR has taken a lot of danger out of the sport. Too many drivers seem like rented suits these days and fans have a hard time connecting with that.
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I can't agree with this. F1 has exploded in recent years despite taking as much, if not more safety measures. The NFL doesn't let you really even tackle a QB anymore, yet it too has exploded. It comes down to personality & drama as far as growth in the sport, as well as the spectacle of it all.

As I've said before, a little more drama and a great female driver would go a long way.
 
I think sponsors have something to do with lack of personality. I don't watch many commercials these days but I can't tell you the last time I top level driver in a national ad. A big part of Dale Jr's fame was the things that Bud had him doing.

The sponsorship model has changed so much that they no longer need/want their driver in the media
 
I just hope that any future contracts will ensure a drivers right to have a single sponsor for all 36 races and it would be even better if it covered their entire career.

No driver should have to endure the soul and personality killing weekly revolving car-skin changes that would deprive him of his identity and essentially be a personality castration by a 1000 cuts.

Cause what we got now is a bunch trans-sponsered drivers that don't even know who they are anymore and that is what killing Nascar.
 
wi_racefan said:
I think sponsors have something to do with lack of personality. I don't watch many commercials these days but I can't tell you the last time I top level driver in a national ad. A big part of Dale Jr's fame was the things that Bud had him doing.

The sponsorship model has changed so much that they no longer need/want their driver in the media
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With the exception of Toyota, you don't even see the manufacturers feature NASCAR drivers in their commercials. And, if they do, they're tailor made solely for NASCAR Cup Series broadcasts.

I've seen the two Toyota Racing ads on multiple broadcasts outside of NASCAR.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
Back in the 90s and early-2000s, even when the drivers ran a one-off paint scheme, they often incorporated core elements from their primary scheme.

Now, no identity.
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You look at an overhead shot of the field from 2003 at any random race and you can pick out almost every driver by paint scheme. Try doing the same in a random race in 2023 but 20 years from now.
 
Efisher131 said:
You look at an overhead shot of the field from 2003 at any random race and you can pick out almost every driver by paint scheme. Try doing the same in a random race in 2023 but 20 years from now.
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Some on here are dismissing this point, but I really don't think it's insignificant at all.

It completely adds to the sport's identity crisis.

Unfortunately, simple schemes are harder now with the number placement. We've seen how a two or three color scheme that's basic (and would be easily recognizable) looks with the number next to the tire and the sponsor logo taking up half the car and it just looks bad.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
Jimmie Johnson's a bad example though. In a lot of ways, you can point to him as one of the main causes for the decline. People didn't just dislike JJ because of his dominance, they didn't like him because he was BORING. The only times you saw any personality from him was in TV commercials.

He should've been a household name, because his Super Jimmie routine began at the peak of NASCAR's popularity.

Unfortunately, he also came in at the time when corporate sponsors and PR reps were at their worst. I will never, ever, ever forget Jimmie Johnson signing autographs and some PR girl from Chevy coming up, grabbing a diecast out of my hands and throwing it on the ground and grabbing hero cards from fans and throwing them.
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Why did the PR rep grab your die-cast and the hero cards?
 
BobbyFord said:
And fools will ask, “Why do you still watch?”
It’s because nobody else has stock car racing. That doesn’t mean that what we see is good. It means that it’s all that we have.
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Cars tour, super lates, dirt late models. There's other forms of stockcar racing that isn't NASCAR sanctioned happening all over the country
 
cheesepuffs said:
Why did the PR rep grab your die-cast and the hero cards?
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She was trying to get Jimmie away from everyone. Yet he seemed content signing autographs.

Goes back to what Tony Stewart was saying at that general timeframe: Too many people in the sport are keeping the drivers away from the fans.
 
F1 has the advantage of being "Cosmopolitan" and "Not American".

It's seen as being higher class, enlightened, and progressive.

You have to remember how much young people hate anything "American" because they associate "America" with Rednecks, Chuds, and Racists.

COTA, and all the (former) F1 and Sportscar drivers it attracted, was a move in the direction Cup needs to go if they want a young audience. Getting road course races in Mexico and Canada on the Cup schedule would probably help, too.
 
cheesepuffs said:
Cars tour, super lates, dirt late models. There's other forms of stockcar racing that isn't NASCAR sanctioned happening all over the country
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None of them on national TV live at all, ever, besides SRX. Flo has its audience and price, but I don’t consider that a TV audience.
 
Hikaru Kitsune said:
You have to remember how much young people hate anything "American" because they associate "America" with Rednecks, Chuds, and Racists.
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IMG_7952.JPG
 
Hikaru Kitsune said:
F1 has the advantage of being "Cosmopolitan" and "Not American".

It's seen as being higher class, enlightened, and progressive.

You have to remember how much young people hate anything "American" because they associate "America" with Rednecks, Chuds, and Racists.

COTA, and all the (former) F1 and Sportscar drivers it attracted, was a move in the direction Cup needs to go if they want a young audience. Getting road course races in Mexico and Canada on the Cup schedule would probably help, too.
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I don't think they hate "American", but they do associate a lot of "traditional" stuff in America with those sorts of people, and the stereotype is not entirely unwarranted either. This is a real problem for some people because in their minds, Americans will not watch anything but oval racing and that simply isn't the case now. The most famous active race car driver in this country is Max Verstappen now. The top NASCAR name is literally a step or two below the most noteworthy in F1. It's not even that close TBH and it's a gap that first started to show up in search volume about 4-5 years ago and it is only extending itself now.

As far as "what is TV?," TV like all other media fractured into a billion pieces. That's something we alluded to pages ago in this thread discussing the way in which pop music has changed and "big stars" simply aren't as big as they once were. I could get further into it, but I don't really need to. Just look at the landscape right now. How far back do you think you'd need to go to find NASCAR Cup Championship contenders like Byron or Larson running as many non-NASCAR events as they do? It's gotta be multiple generations now. It doesn't really matter to this whether or not you are presently watching because it already exists and happens.
 
MRM said:
I'm older than most on here. I grew up watching Richard Petty, David Pearson, Bobby Allison, Buddy Baker, and the likes. I thought those were tough, fearless men. Even though the sport became more commercialized, you still had Dale Earnhardt, Terry Labonte, Bill Elliott, and the likes that were also considered tough. Jeff Gordon was never considered that, but he captured a new generation of fans that helped the sport explode because it was a stark difference between he and Earnhardt.

It wasn't until you started seeing Jimmie Johnson, Matt Kenseth, and drivers like that who were great drivers, but didn't come off as tough. Then you had the wave of unproven kids that got rides because they had sponsors and not resumes. Going into the early 2000's, you thought those drivers were risking injuries and even their lives to race. Once Earnhardt was killed followed by Adam Petty, NASCAR has taken a lot of danger out of the sport. Too many drivers seem like rented suits these days and fans have a hard time connecting with that.
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Exactly...danger and speed are what NASCAR was built on. Now what do you have? Safety first, then (corporate) team work.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
FloRacing is TV.

More people watch Netflix/Prime/Apple than TBS/TNT/USA.
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The problem is (as always) is how do bring the casual or non fan to Flo or anything like it? It's GREAT for those that already vested in the sport, but how does it grow the audience? My 80+ year old grandmother started watching ASA racing because it was on TNN, a channel she watched very regularly. If I go poll 1000 random people on the street in Fort Wayne Indiana, 998 will have not the SLIGHTEST idea what Flo even is, let alone subscribe to it.
 
Formerjackman said:
The problem is (as always) is how do bring the casual or non fan to Flo or anything like it? It's GREAT for those that already vested in the sport, but how does it grow the audience? My 80+ year old grandmother started watching ASA racing because it was on TNN, a channel she watched very regularly. If I go poll 1000 random people on the street in Fort Wayne Indiana, 998 will have not the SLIGHTEST idea what Flo even is, let alone subscribe to it.
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FloSports has A LOT more than racing - and the subscription for FloSports covers everything.

The deal I'm getting ready to sign for the track I'm at is an Eastern North Carolina sports network that covers high school and college sports across the region.

As for NASCAR ... the strongest aspects of their new deal put them in front of tens of millions of potential new viewers on Amazon Prime and whatever WB Discovery is calling their streaming service this month.
 
Formerjackman said:
The problem is (as always) is how do bring the casual or non fan to Flo or anything like it? It's GREAT for those that already vested in the sport, but how does it grow the audience? My 80+ year old grandmother started watching ASA racing because it was on TNN, a channel she watched very regularly. If I go poll 1000 random people on the street in Fort Wayne Indiana, 998 will have not the SLIGHTEST idea what Flo even is, let alone subscribe to it.
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The audience for stuff like Flo is going to be in part dependent on the participation of drivers from NASCAR and other series (but predominantly NASCAR) for now until it ever hits a point at which it obtains critical mass and people just know to get it. I don't think that's speculation either; it's just an acknowledgement of the current situation. You're not going to hook people by flipping through the channels anymore. That's not possible.
 
List of FloSports properties, from Wikipedia:

Baseball
  • Big Ten
  • Coastal Athletic Association
  • Future Star Series Nationals 17s
  • Future Star Series Nationals 16s
  • Future Star Series Nationals 15s
  • NB Future Stars Series
  • College Baseball Classic
Basketball
  • Basketball Bundesliga
  • Big Ten
  • Colonial Athletic Association
  • EuroLeague
  • EuroCup
  • FIBA 3x3 World Tour
Bowling
  • PBA
  • PBA50
  • PBA Senior
  • USBC
  • World Bowling Tour
  • Competitive Fitness
  • Cycling
  • Cycling Canada
  • Giro d'Italia
  • Tour de France (Canada Only)
  • Union Europeenne De Cyclisme
  • Union Cyclste Internationale
Football
  • Colonial Athletic Association
  • FCS Bowl
  • National Bowl
  • All American Classic
  • Dream Bowl
  • Tropical Bowl
  • HBCU Spirit of America Bowl
  • Mid-Eastern Athletic Conference
  • Southern Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
  • South Atlantic Conference
Grappling
  • ADCC Submission Wrestling World Championship[33]
  • IBJJF
  • Who's Number One (WNO)
  • Who's Number One also known as FloGrappling WNO Championship is a grappling event series streamed on FloSports and organised since 2019 by its subdivision FloGrappling. It presents elite grapplers from around the world competing across different weight divisions and rule sets. The events encompass both gi and no-gi Brazilian jiu-jitsu matches.
Gymnastics

Hockey
  • Big Ten
  • WCHA
  • Atlantic Hockey
  • ECHL
  • CJHL

Lacrosse
  • Big Ten
  • Snowbird Baseball
  • Frisco Classic
  • Future Star Series
  • Marching
  • Drum Corps International
  • Bands of America
  • Winter Guard International
Motorsports
  • All Star Circuit of Champions[36]
  • Lucas Oil Late Model Dirt Series
  • CARS Tour
  • ARCA Menards Series (Select Events with MAVTV)
  • ARCA Menards Series East and West
  • ASCS National Tour
  • Chili Bowl Nationals
  • Eldora Speedway (Outside of World of Outlaws Events)[36]
  • FIA World Rallycross Championship
  • IRA Outlaw Sprints[37]
  • NARC King of the West 410 Sprints
  • NASCAR Advance Auto Parts Weekly Series (Events held mostly at Bowman Gray Stadium, New Smyrna Speedway, and Berlin Raceway)
  • NASCAR Pinty's Series
  • NASCAR Whelen Modified Tour
  • Pennsylvania Speed Week
  • Appalachian Mountain Speed Week
  • Short Track Super Series
  • USAC including Sprint, Silver Crown, and Midget events such as Indiana Midget Week, Indiana Sprint Week, Pennsylvania Midget Week, Oval Nationals, and Turkey Night Grand Prix.
  • Port Royal Speedway
  • Bridgeport Speedway
  • Marshalltown Speedway
  • Silver Dollar Speedway
  • Tulsa Speedway
  • Utica-Rome Speedway
  • Port City Speedway
  • Stafford Speedway
  • Rodeo
  • Canadian Finals Rodeo
  • PBR
  • RidePass

Rugby
  • United Rugby Championship
  • Top14
  • Rugby Sevens
  • Super Rugby Pacific
  • USA Rugby
  • England Rugby
  • National Provisional Championship (New Zealand)
  • Autumn Nations Series
  • European Rugby Champions Cup (EPCR)
  • EPCR Challenge Cup
Softball
  • Big Ten
  • PGF
  • Judi Carman Classic
  • Soccer
  • CONCACAF (select matches)
  • Supercoppa Italiana and Coppa Italia (Canada only)
  • NCAA
  • CNL League A
  • CNL League B
  • CNL League C
Swimming
  • Big Ten
  • Big 12
  • ISCA
  • LEN European Aquatics
  • USA Water Polo
Track
  • Big Ten
  • Big 12
  • NCAA
  • AAU
  • MileSplit
  • Under Armour Sunset Tour
  • Amsterdam Marathon
  • London Marathon
  • Marathon De Paris
  • Stumptown Twilight
  • Great Manchester Run
  • Great North Run
Volleyball
  • Big Ten
  • Big 12
  • Colonial Athletic Association
  • FIV3
  • Panamerican Cup
  • Nike Tournament of Championship
  • NCAA
Wrestling
  • Big Ten
  • NCAA
  • Fight To Win
  • Actec Warrior Championship



It's basically "ESPN The Ocho" year-round.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
FloSports has A LOT more than racing - and the subscription for FloSports covers everything.

The deal I'm getting ready to sign for the track I'm at is an Eastern North Carolina sports network that covers high school and college sports across the region.

As for NASCAR ... the strongest aspects of their new deal put them in front of tens of millions of potential new viewers on Amazon Prime and whatever WB Discovery is calling their streaming service this month.
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What I object to is the either or aspect of it. Stream every race, every practice, stream the hauler parade, hell, stream the line at the porta john. The more the better. Doing it at the expense of broadcast and basic cable is a HUGE mistake in my opinion.
 
Formerjackman said:
What I object to is the either or aspect of it. Stream every race, every practice, stream the hauler parade, hell, stream the line at the porta john. The more the better. Doing it at the expense of broadcast and basic cable is a HUGE mistake in my opinion.
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We've already gone back-and-forth on this, more than once. 🙄

Those of us who are pro-streaming think EVERY race should be available through streaming, and are opposed to the number of races that are available only on cable television.

More people have Prime Video than cable, so we're splitting hairs arguing why those races should be on FS1` or TNT INSTEAD of Prime Video.

If NASCAR had EVERY race on Prime/Max/Peacock, the fans could save a ton of money over the season. Instead, fans have to hold a cable package that costs anywhere from $80-$300/month just to get FS1 and USA.
 
cheesepuffs said:
"TV" these days has changed.
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Not for common folks. It’s still the same channels + Amazon Prime + Netflix. No one likes Peacock.

The ratings will be abysmal for the Amazon Prime NASCAR races but a decent amount of people have it at times.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
FloRacing is TV.

More people watch Netflix/Prime/Apple than TBS/TNT/USA.
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FloRacing is not TV lol. It’s a streaming service that has a niche following with a fair amount of supporters. I never denied or argued some other streaming providers.
 
racingfan7 said:
Not for common folks. It’s still the same channels + Amazon Prime + Netflix. No one likes Peacock.
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The number of people who have cable television is plummeting dramatically.

You don't even need cable to watch the NFL anymore. Literally EVERY SINGLE GAME is available via OTT.

Every single sport is moving away from cable, and NASCAR quadrupled down on it.
 
racingfan7 said:
FloRacing is not TV lol. It’s a streaming service that has a niche following with a fair amount of supporters. I never denied or argued some other streaming providers.
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"Streaming" is TV now.

Hell, most of us younger folks who do watch "Cable" do so through YouTube, which is literally a streaming service.

Your version of TV is called "linear television."
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
"Streaming" is TV now.

Hell, most of us younger folks who do watch "Cable" do so through YouTube, which is literally a streaming service.
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K.

No average person on the street considers FloRacing to be “TV”, especially at the price they charge. It’s more “PPV”.
 
racingfan7 said:
K.

No average person on the street considers FloRacing to be TV, especially at the price they charge.
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Fans ask all the time if our races are televised on Flo. The use of the word "televised" implies that it's TV.

A TV is a telecommunications device that displays motion picture and sound.

Next up, you're going to explain to me that iRacing is not a videogame.
 
Formerjackman said:
The problem is (as always) is how do bring the casual or non fan to Flo or anything like it? It's GREAT for those that already vested in the sport, but how does it grow the audience? My 80+ year old grandmother started watching ASA racing because it was on TNN, a channel she watched very regularly. If I go poll 1000 random people on the street in Fort Wayne Indiana, 998 will have not the SLIGHTEST idea what Flo even is, let alone subscribe to it.
Click to expand...

Nobody recognizes these drivers like they do in the 2000’s that’s for sure.
 
racingfan7 said:
K.

No average person on the street considers FloRacing to be “TV”, especially at the price they charge. It’s more “PPV”.
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The average person subscribes to digital streaming services to deliver programming to their home in 2023. This is like having a discussion about how cable TV isn't gonna make it in 1982 because the cost of building physical infrastructure is too great.
 
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