Offseason topic.... If you could erase one rule from the MENCS rulebook, what would it be and why?

AdoubleU24 said:
Counting caution laps. And honestly, if they just changed it to where they don't count them when it's under 50 to go I'd be cool with that.
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The problem with a fixed lap number is that all races aren't the same length. 50 laps at Bristol ain't 50 laps at Phoenix, and it sure ain't 50 laps at Talladega.

However, you might try making a case for a percentage of total laps.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
The problem with a fixed lap number is that all races aren't the same length. 50 laps at Bristol ain't 50 laps at Phoenix, and it sure ain't 50 laps at Talladega.

However, you might try making a case for a percentage of total laps.
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yeah that is what we need, a percentage meter to go along with their simple points and playoff system. Put Larry Mac over in the corner of the screen with his calculator, the gerbils in the middle and over on the far left in a postage stamp sized window we could watch the race. :D
 
StandOnIt said:
I know you have the bandwidth to watch this. The same Diameters are used on the above demonstration




The difference between an orifice and a nozzle



And racing nerd stuff. An article that goes in depth about Nascar and the tapered spacer


http://buildingspeed.org/blog/2018/10/12/2019-rules-package-tapered-spacer/
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Thanks for the info, I did see it previously when you posted. I understand the concepts and why the spacer is viewed as a refinement with certain advantages such as greater throttle response. I still view it as a marginal improvement. Basically, if you liked the plate races before, you're going to like Daytona and Talladega races with the spacer. If you didn't like them, you're not going to find anything radically different happening. As I said though, it might be a bit better from my perspective.
 
gnomesayin said:
Thanks for the info, I did see it previously when you posted. I understand the concepts and why the spacer is viewed as a refinement with certain advantages such as greater throttle response. I still view it as a marginal improvement. Basically, if you liked the plate races before, you're going to like Daytona and Talladega races with the spacer. If you didn't like them, you're not going to find anything radically different happening. As I said though, it might be a bit better from my perspective.
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another common misconception:
*Note: NASCAR regulates the spacer/restrictor plate, not the horsepower.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
So very, very sorry. I bring dishonor to my family and my ancestors. Anybody seen my Ginsu knife?
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I'm not sorry. I don't think we derailed anything too badly, though maybe the posts should be moved to the new rules package thread.

As far as the thread topic, I'm with those that would junk the playoffs. If not that, at least the one race finale. If not that, I'd make it between the top two at Homestead.
 
I'm tired of hearing coach Jim Mora's voice EVERY TIME they say it. It was tolerable when it was The Chase at least after the 10 race cutoff the rest would playout naturally.

Stages are great on RP tracks because it rewards mixing it up and not running in the back the whole time. They make little sense everywhere else and destroyed pit strategy at road courses.
 
StandOnIt said:
a whole lot of ignorance and mis-understanding between the characteristics of a restrictor plate and a tapered spacer. The flow characteristics are night and day difference Min Dia, to Min Dia.
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Each one is a gimmick to rob horsepower.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
So very, very sorry. I bring dishonor to my family and my ancestors. Anybody seen my Ginsu knife?
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Don’t be sorry. As to original intent of this thread the restrictor plate discussion is more of what I was thinking.
I view the playoffs as more of a “format“ rather than a rule

*also just wanted to see a thread talking about something other than the five threads that are nothing but the usual suspects pontificating about the impending demise of our beloved sport.
 
IanMcVittie said:
Each one is a gimmick to rob horsepower.
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The rest of us know it controls horsepower and is easily adjusted as the situations warrant with a CNC program and a few hours. . Of course many don't follow IMSA and aren't familiar with the BOP . So them thar gimmicky plate thingys seems to work for some that don't know the difference between a choke and a tapered spacer.
 
StandOnIt said:
The rest of us know it controls horsepower and is easily adjusted as the situations warrant with a CNC program and a few hours. . Of course many don't follow IMSA and aren't familiar with the BOP . So them thar gimmicky plate thingys seems to work for some that don't know the difference between a choke and a tapered spacer.
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They are both tools used rob horsepower and make race cars go slower. Period.
 
yep if ya don't have a clue about the BOP or how it works or what they do in other series's world wide to limit horsepower, there ya go.
 
StandOnIt said:
yep if ya don't have a clue about the BOP or how it works or what they do in other series's world wide to limit horsepower, there ya go.
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If you think restrictor plates and tapered spacers are not used by Nascar to choke horsepower and reduce speeds I am ok with it.
 
Call it a gimmick or call it innovative. If you like your race cars to have less power and develop less speed these devices are your friends.

IDK what the issue is as it is obvious what these things are designed to do. It is not a secret and information abounds.
 
KTMLew01 said:
Nope. You know what a throttle body is? No fuel present. Just air.
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Injectors are on the intake manifold in those old videos -- and it looks like they're still there on the roushyates website engine image. So, not throttle-body injection (states it is port injected in the read up) -- as it's clearly "downstream" of the throttle-body as well as tapered spacer.

So back to the design of tapered spacer vs plate:

With the assist of gravity as well as air flow coming from the throttle body thru the tapered spacer,

then down into the manifold where it combines with fuel from the injectors (which supply their own pressure and spray pattern) in the manifold --

then into the cylinders for firing.

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Engine tuners are looking for best use of "available air" (as NASCAR takes away more air (air flow) by use of these devices) for the combustion cycle of these engines.

SOI posted a couple of videos that indicated how the tapered spacer allows for a better flow based on geometry of the orifices vs a plate.

Is that it? Is that what we're talking about? Does that result in better throttle response? top end? What?

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https://roushyates.com/engines/ford-fr9-efi/

roush-fr9efi.jpg
 
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IanMcVittie said:
If you think restrictor plates and tapered spacers are not used by Nascar to choke horsepower and reduce speeds I am ok with it.
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I'm not a fan of restrictor plates, because I think it is the wrong WAY to reduce horsepower, but how are restrictor plates and tapered spacers any different than turbocharger pop-off valves that have been used in various series for a good 50 years? I laugh at the concept you seem to have that there is a racing series ANYWHERE that doesn't restrict horsepower in some way or another, even NHRA Top Fuel and Funny Car.
 
Plates and tapered spacers achieve pack racing by greatly robbing an engine of horsepower and a car of speed.
I consider the new rules to be dumbing things down and robbing the top drivers of a unique skill set.
 
IanMcVittie said:
Plates and tapered spacers achieve pack racing by greatly robbing an engine of horsepower and a car of speed.

I consider the new rules to be dumbing things down and robbing the top drivers of a unique skill set.
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It has never mattered much how much horsepower a Nascar has, the selection of the rear differential gear ratio that Nascar regulates has been doing it for years. So limiting the induction system and/or changing the rear gear ratio all play a part in manipulating the racing product on the track if a person would take the time to learn that. Casual fans shouldn't panic. As it is now, it is a simple matter for almost ANY manufacturer to get into the game by regulating the tapered spacer and the rear gear ratio in the rear end. Overall weight is another way along with fuel capacity. The only thing lacking is a rule change to permit all of that. This choking and abhorrence with pack racing is getting kinda funny. People who fear changes in the sport are in for big surprises coming soon I have a feeling, you can't have record numbers of manufacturers in IMSA this year and have the same guy that figured out how to do that across the hall in the IMSA offices also running Nascar and think that isn't going to happen or something pretty close.
 
We seem to be getting in the territory of saying NASCAR is correct to reduce HP because no series on the planet runs 1000000000 HP. More specifically it should be "Is it okay to reduce HP well below maximum potential in order to produce a certain style of racing?" Because most other series' HP levels are restricted by a number of things including 1) safety, 2) based upon a production engine in a production-style series, 3) natural physical limits of what can be built. That's not for me to decide, but that's more the argument at hand.
 
IMO the subject at hand was Nascar intentionally robbing the engines of horsepower and the cars of speed in 2019 versus 2018.
The use of tapered spacers to slow things down is not in question so referencing other series plus the other red herrings did not make sense to me.

I liked the speech contests put on last year and I had no problem with a team or 2 spanking the field.
 
Formerjackman said:
I'm not a fan of restrictor plates, because I think it is the wrong WAY to reduce horsepower, but how are restrictor plates and tapered spacers any different than turbocharger pop-off valves that have been used in various series for a good 50 years? I laugh at the concept you seem to have that there is a racing series ANYWHERE that doesn't restrict horsepower in some way or another, even NHRA Top Fuel and Funny Car.
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I have no idea where you came up with the idea I thought no racing series regulated or restricted horsepower. It was not anything I had even thought of as all I was talking about 2019 cup versus 2018.
 
Top Series all seem to have their own rules/gimmicks directed at enhancing "live action" on the track.

NASCAR seems to have foregone the high tech solutions below -- and just gave their Drivers use of the bumpers. :D

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Formula 1: DRS

"The DRS system is electronically governed and is only available during the race when a driver is less than one second behind another car at pre-determined points on the track. The system is then deactivated once the driver brakes."
https://www.formula1.com/en/champio...regs/Bodywork_and_dimensions_and_Cockpit.html

https://www.racefans.net/2018/05/18/f1-not-considering-push-to-pass-style-drs/

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Indy Car: Push to Pass

"14.18.13. Push to Pass Parameters

14.18.13.1 The total Push to Pass time and time per push per Race are as follows:

14-18-13-1.jpg
"

https://www.indycar.com/Fan-Info/INDYCAR-101/Rulebook/Chp14-TechSpecifications

https://www.autosport.com/indycar/news/135508/power-wants-return-of-old-pushtopass-system
 
IanMcVittie said:
I have no idea where you came up with the idea I thought no racing series regulated or restricted horsepower. It was not anything I had even thought of as all I was talking about 2019 cup versus 2018.
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OK, how did you come to the conclusion 2018 was the right amount of horsepower, and 2019 is the wrong amount? The 2018 number is FAR less than it would be if the engine builders were left to their own devices.
 
Formerjackman said:
OK, how did you come to the conclusion 2018 was the right amount of horsepower, and 2019 is the wrong amount? The 2018 number is FAR less than it would be if the engine builders were left to their own devices.
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In every racing I have been involved in or attended in person there has always been restrictions on engines. Going back as far as 1972 they pulled 2 plugs from the top 2 cars and checked the engine's CID
 
LewTheShoe said:
Erase the policy that the winner is never disqualified, that the win is never taken away, no matter how dirty the driving or how egregious the cheating.
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OK, that one is done and dusted. If y'all have any other special rules requests, just let me know and I'll take care of 'em for ya...
:cheers:
 
There are a few changes I would like to see. The first thing I think Nascar should do is drop the rules that make a team use certain parts such as transmission gears, rear end gears and other parts designated by Nascar. If a team wants to run a different rear end, why prevent it??
Springs and shocks should be the Teams decision as well.
 
Most of these items are are controlled by NASCAR to keep the sport from turning into a Formula One arms race, and because they really add nothing to the show. A team could spend six months and a million dollars trying to convert a Dana 60 or a GM 12 bolt rear end to NASCAR use, but what's the point? At the end of the day you've spent a ton of money and is the race any better for it? Far more reliable and cheaper to use an approved item that you can get proven parts for from any one of a number of vendors. Springs don't have much restriction other than basic size and type. There are certain rules governing shocks, but there again some of it was put in place to prevent the circumvention of other rules NASCAR had in place (like rides height) and to keep the teams from spending even more stupid sums of money developing and testing them. It hasn't been THAT MANY years ago that the shocks came right out of a parts box and came in soft, medium and firm rides. Richard Petty won a couple hundred races with those. Now we have to have a $100,000 a year shock guy, a $20,000 shock dyno and the software to make it all work, and untold thousands of dollars worth of shocks and internal parts, and what have we really gained? Is the racing any better than it was then?
 
The racing money arms race filters thru out the whole series, and it brings out screams of IROC (they probably didn't see any of those races) , spec racing..(all race cars are spec cars) dumbing down the racing, on and on if any standardization is suggested. Haven't heard a peep out of anyone about the standard composite bodies they have been using in the Xfinity series and they have all but eliminated all of the body tweaking that was going on. No telling how many dollars weren't spent by the top teams in that frivolous direction and the racing is just fine without it. There are a bunch that say all rules cost more money, what a croc. All you have to do it look at F-1. They spend tons on flippers, or winglets what ya call it's, and untold hours in the wind tunnel and nobody can tell the difference in the racing. Pretty stupid IMO. Racing for who can spend the most money. A standard car for Pinty's, Mexico, and Europe was another brilliant move by the new administration. Standard parts can't do anything but drive down the cost of racing in those series.
 
Formerjackman said:
Most of these items are are controlled by NASCAR to keep the sport from turning into a Formula One arms race, and because they really add nothing to the show. A team could spend six months and a million dollars trying to convert a Dana 60 or a GM 12 bolt rear end to NASCAR use, but what's the point? At the end of the day you've spent a ton of money and is the race any better for it? Far more reliable and cheaper to use an approved item that you can get proven parts for from any one of a number of vendors. Springs don't have much restriction other than basic size and type. There are certain rules governing shocks, but there again some of it was put in place to prevent the circumvention of other rules NASCAR had in place (like rides height) and to keep the teams from spending even more stupid sums of money developing and testing them. It hasn't been THAT MANY years ago that the shocks came right out of a parts box and came in soft, medium and firm rides. Richard Petty won a couple hundred races with those. Now we have to have a $100,000 a year shock guy, a $20,000 shock dyno and the software to make it all work, and untold thousands of dollars worth of shocks and internal parts, and what have we really gained? Is the racing any better than it was then?
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Gear ratio choice is a far cry from the example you stated. Nobody said to spend multi million dollars on gearing. Just open up the ratio selection.
As far as your hypothetical question about the racing ..... I guess we all have different opinions of how it is now versus how it was then.
 
StandOnIt said:
The racing money arms race filters thru out the whole series, and it brings out screams of IROC (they probably didn't see any of those races) , spec racing..(all race cars are spec cars) dumbing down the racing, on and on if any standardization is suggested. Haven't heard a peep out of anyone about the standard composite bodies they have been using in the Xfinity series and they have all but eliminated all of the body tweaking that was going on. No telling how many dollars weren't spent by the top teams in that frivolous direction and the racing is just fine without it. There are a bunch that say all rules cost more money, what a croc. All you have to do it look at F-1. They spend tons on flippers, or winglets what ya call it's, and untold hours in the wind tunnel and nobody can tell the difference in the racing. Pretty stupid IMO. Racing for who can spend the most money. A standard car for Pinty's, Mexico, and Europe was another brilliant move by the new administration. Standard parts can't do anything but drive down the cost of racing in those series.
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Nobody says anything about the composite bodies because everybody has been “dumbed down“ into accepting the fact that they’re all the same crap!
As far as spec parts and the “cost of racing“....... that’s fine for the lower series but for the cup series I really don’t care how much they spend!
How much did Harvick’s spoiler cost?
Was anybody worried about the cost then? No!
 
Old 97 said:
Nobody said to spend multi million dollars on gearing. Just open up the ratio selection.
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That's what I was referring to. A small team knows their engine is down on HP and they can't afford anything else. What do you do? Change your gear ratio so you can use what you have more effective. The same thing goes for gear ratios in the transmission. No HP? change your gears so you can be more effective.
 
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