SILLY SEASON 2018

[aunty dive]

Hendrick doesn't fund race teams with his own tax-paid dollars. Why would any wealthy person do that?

Minor point, but what about Hendrick Cars.com? He has even sponsored some cars that weren't HIS.

And Penske Truck Rentals. There are other examples.

They are corporate entities and irrespective of ownership are able to reduce federal and other corporate income taxes payable by expensing the cost of race team and other sponsorships.

Individuals can't do that and the idea that any of these guys occasionally "self" sponsor their own teams "out of their own pockets" with personal tax-paid dollars is a myth. Just another reason why they have as much money as they do.

 

[Team Penske]

Oh I am not saying hes the worst, hes good for what the team is, but to go to the next level like FRR they need a guy like Kahne. I dont see McDowell taking them there.

How can you say that? KK has been with a winning organization for years and has done nothing to convince me he can be the next KB for a small team. McDowell on the other hand has never had a very good ride and yet he has almost won a few hard fought races. The man shows nothing but determination to get more than his car has even if that means roughing up a few on his way.
I like that kind of driver better than those that do nothing with much better equipment.

 

[Jorge De Guzman]

How can you say that? KK has been with a winning organization for years and has done nothing to convince me he can be the next KB for a small team. McDowell on the other hand has never had a very good ride and yet he has almost won a few hard fought races. The man shows nothing but determination to get more than his car has even if that means roughing up a few on his way.
I like that kind of driver better than those that do nothing with much better equipment.

18 Cup wins allow me to say that.

 

[Team Penske]

They are corporate entities and irrespective of ownership are able to reduce federal and other corporate income taxes payable by expensing the cost of race team and other sponsorships.

Actually if you understand accounting, that is not true. Here in Canada, the top tax for a corporation's is 57% In other words you can give 57 cents to the government or add
43 cents of your profit sharing funds and give the government nothing. There is no such thing as tax free.
My bad aunty, "reduce taxes is correct" but still at a cost to profits.

 

[Team Penske]

18 Cup wins allow me to say that.

18 cup wins when in a special position of strength but never came close in lesser equipment.

 

[Jorge De Guzman]

18 cup wins when in a special position of strength but never came close in lesser equipment.

Depends on how you look at what a position of strength is. Evernham and Hendrick fall into that category. Red Bull, RPM were not top notch, who he won for. If I was a Cup owner I'd want a proven commodity (wins and success in Cup) over almost coming close

 

[Jorge De Guzman]

18 cup wins when in a special position of strength but never came close in lesser equipment.

And not to flame but I will never understand this argument. It's Kahne's fault he never produced in lesser equipment how many other guys would produce in bad equipment? If we use that logic then why did Bowyer get the 14 after his horrendous outing at Harry Scott Motorsports? It doesn't make sense to me. I guess it can go both ways maybe in that how can you write a guy off like McDowell w/o ever seeing him in a top notch ride but I would counter if he was that good how come a big team hasn't taken a shot on him yet? And that goes for the other drivers riding around in back not just picking on McDowell

 

[Team Penske]

Dealers choice. LOL
Apparently many find his ability not worth the sking price. He may be able to get a ride at 1/2
price.

And not to flame but I will never understand this argument. It's Kahne's fault he never produced in lesser equipment how many other guys would produce in bad equipment? If we use that logic then why did Bowyer get the 14 after his horrendous outing at Harry Scott Motorsports? It doesn't make sense to me. I guess it can go both ways maybe in that how can you write a guy off like McDowell w/o ever seeing him in a top notch ride but I would counter if he was that good how come a big team hasn't taken a shot on him yet? And that goes for the other drivers riding around in back not just picking on McDowell

Again it all comes back to their ability to sell themselves to sponsors.
Question: when young Yates tried to run his own team under Roush, wasn't McDowell one of his drivers?

 

[Team Penske]

And not to flame but I will never understand this argument. It's Kahne's fault he never produced in lesser equipment how many other guys would produce in bad equipment? If we use that logic then why did Bowyer get the 14 after his horrendous outing at Harry Scott Motorsports? It doesn't make sense to me. I guess it can go both ways maybe in that how can you write a guy off like McDowell w/o ever seeing him in a top notch ride but I would counter if he was that good how come a big team hasn't taken a shot on him yet? And that goes for the other drivers riding around in back not just picking on McDowell

One of the best drivers to get more from his equipment was DE.
However he was a rare man in a different time era so it is unfair to judge others by his standards. I judge KK by his standard at HMS. He was running against JJ and JG in comparable equipment and yet his results were far from being satisfactory. This is not just my opinion, Rick Hendrick bought out his contract and I doubt he was forced to because of Byron.

 

[Jorge De Guzman]

Dealers choice. LOL
Apparently many find his ability not worth the sking price. He may be able to get a ride at 1/2
price.

Again it all comes back to their ability to sell themselves to sponsors.
Question: when young Yates tried to run his own team under Roush, wasn't McDowell one of his drivers?

Ohh I don't remember I just know McDowell drove the 55 Aaron's Dream Machine way back when.

 

[Jorge De Guzman]

One of the best drivers to get more from his equipment was DE.
However he was a rare man in a different time era so it is unfair to judge others by his standards. I judge KK by his standard at HMS. He was running against JJ and JG in comparable equipment and yet his results were far from being satisfactory. This is not just my opinion, Rick Hendrick bought out his contract and I doubt he was forced to because of Byron.

Hey I agree with that, he underperformed at Hendrick and a change was made because of it. But I don't choose to ignore his 18 Cup wins, that's a huge deal in a series where a lot of the veterans are being retired. As a Cup owner you're going to need someone proven to win these races who's to say these young drivers coming up are going to win right away. Love Chase, but if you had told me he'd be winless going into the playoff portion of his second season I'd call you an idiot. Winning takes time for some guys all I'm saying is I'd rather have Kahne over some of the alternatives out there

 

[aunty dive]

Actually if you understand accounting, that is not true. Here in Canada, the top tax for a corporation's is 57% In other words you can give 57 cents to the government or add
43 cents of your profit sharing funds and give the government nothing. There is no such thing as tax free.
My bad aunty, "reduce taxes is correct" but still at a cost to profits.

It's completely true. I didn't use the term tax free.

Expense reduces profit. Accounting 101.

 

[Jorge De Guzman]

It's completely true. I didn't use the term tax free.

Expense reduces profit. Accounting 101.

I think I got you, to make a profit you have to keep those expenses to a minimum

 

[Allenbaba]

Yes, corporate entities pay for race teams, and corporate entities receive a tax break...but spending 60 or 70 cents on the dollar is still spending 60-70 cents on the dollar. The bottom line is that these owners would have much more personal wealth without race teams. But they love racing as a passion and as a hobby, so they make it happn. Nothing wrong with that whatsoever - we all have our things. But at the end of the day, they're still spending their money. It just hasn't gotten to their pocket yet.

 

[aunty dive]

Yes, corporate entities pay for race teams, and corporate entities receive a tax break...but spending 60 or 70 cents on the dollar is still spending 60-70 cents on the dollar. The bottom line is that these owners would have much more personal wealth without race teams. But they love racing as a passion and as a hobby, so they make it happn. Nothing wrong with that whatsoever - we all have our things. But at the end of the day, they're still spending their money. It just hasn't gotten to their pocket yet.

Nice to hear from you on this.

"Their" money, if paid to themselves from one of their corporations, is personal tax payable at a rate of 40 or so percent ... after it's already been taxed at the corporate rates. So there's that.

I wonder how wealthy Richard Childress would be if he had never gone racing?

 

[CalTenn]

Kahne won at Red Bull racing, how's that for a lower tier team!

 

[Kiante]

Kahne won at Red Bull racing, how's that for a lower tier team!

Red Bull pushed a **** ton of money into the team and expected to win every race. Their budget was pretty damn big in NASCAR, until they decided to focus on F1 their impact in NASCAR was already huge. Chase Elliott, Cole Whitt, Kasey Kahne, and Brian Vickers were the last drivers to be sponsored by Red Bull in NASCAR. Red Bull realized that having a lot of money does not win a lot of NASCAR races, they had the right face in Kahne, but by the time they were able to compete in the higher tier of the field. They just shut down the operation.

 

[Allenbaba]

Nice to hear from you on this.

"Their" money, if paid to themselves from one of their corporations, is personal tax payable at a rate of 40 or so percent ... after it's already been taxed at the corporate rates. So there's that.

I wonder how wealthy Richard Childress would be if he had never gone racing?

All they're doing is paying for a hobby pre-tax. It's smart. And all I'm saying is that they're making a choice to go racing for 100% of the profit dollar, rather than put 60 cents of it in their pocket. Every business owner does this. For some it's a vacation home, or computers, or a car, boat, hotel stays, etc. They make the decision that spending a dollar on XX is better than 60 cents in the pocket. My point in the last post is that 60 cents is still 60 cents, and while (most of) these guys are gazillionaires with/without racing, almost any of us in this thread could retire on the money they don't pay themselves in order to race.

But also, as we've seen just this season, there are some owners who, for whatever reason, do get into a lot of personal debt by racing, even though they used corporate checks to pay the shop rent. And then they end up blowing their head off. So there's still plenty of financial risk if you don't do it right. (Though most do...)

 

[Formerjackman]

Nice to hear from you on this.


I wonder how wealthy Richard Childress would be if he had never gone racing?

RC is one of the rare few that actually DID build a fortune from racing, but he was able to do it by having the cash cow that was Dale Earnhardt. It would tough for anybody to EVER build an empire like that again.

 

[Allenbaba]

RC is one of the rare few that actually DID build a fortune from racing, but he was able to do it by having the cash cow that was Dale Earnhardt. It would tough for anybody to EVER build an empire like that again.

The thing is, especially in the 90's and early 00's boom, a lot of these guys could have turned a profit. But, even when they covered their budgets with external dollars, they still put (millions) of their own money into it, because winning was that important to them.

EDIT to qualify: millions of their own "pre-tax corporate dollars" into it.

 

[lolla79]

^^ I don't know in what area your expertise lies but I'd suggest you shouldn't venture too far from it.

It appears your only expertise is skimming articles that have no bearing on the conversation at hand. It's okay though, aunty dive knows best!

Nascar is much different than stick and ball in that you can buy a spot in the game in Nascar and line up on the grid. Obviously that is not possible in stick and ball as positions are doled out on merit only.

Thanks for saying this. I think a few people mischaracterized my original point.

 

[kkfan91]

@Allenbaba had you heard anything about the Kahne to the 95 rumors?

 

[Jorge De Guzman]

It appears your only expertise is skimming articles that have no bearing on the conversation at hand. It's okay though, aunty dive knows best!



Thanks for saying this. I think a few people mischaracterized my original point.

I agree with both you and Aunty, both make good points. The only thing I would say is watch a Trucks race? You cant tell me those backmarkers are there because of their skill, I would bet its they brought money through family or they have family sponsorship.

 

[mdh1776]

I agree with both you and Aunty, both make good points. The only thing I would say is watch a Trucks race? You cant tell me those backmarkers are there because of their skill, I would bet its they brought money through family or they have family sponsorship.

Of course some(most?) bring money to the table. But these back markers are mostly at an elite level at their local/regional tracks yet are simply overwhelmed/unprepared/too inexperienced when it comes to racing at larger tracks. We see that often, drivers that struggle at intermediate tracks but seem to run well in lesser equipment at short tracks.

 

[aunty dive]

It appears your only expertise is skimming articles that have no bearing on the conversation at hand. It's okay though, aunty dive knows best!

Appearances can be deceiving. I know far more about this subject matter than you do.

 

[Jorge De Guzman]

Of course some(most?) bring money to the table. But these back markers are mostly at an elite level at their local/regional tracks yet are simply overwhelmed/unprepared/too inexperienced when it comes to racing at larger tracks. We see that often, drivers that struggle at intermediate tracks but seem to run well in lesser equipment at short tracks.

Yea I dont think they are not good, I mean obviously they belong. But they got an opportunity quicker than maybe someone else would have which I have no problem with. My career got started because my dad does the same thing in the same field so I understand completely. But my question is are they as talented as someone who could be quicker in that seat that doesnt have the same opportunities.

 

[lolla79]

Of course some(most?) bring money to the table. But these back markers are mostly at an elite level at their local/regional tracks yet are simply overwhelmed/unprepared/too inexperienced when it comes to racing at larger tracks. We see that often, drivers that struggle at intermediate tracks but seem to run well in lesser equipment at short tracks.

Again I agree to disagree. You can't tell me that John Wes Townley was in the truck series because of his talent. Daddy owned Zaxby's and said "do something with your life." Similar situation with Paul Menard, but even I'll agree that Paul has some talent that has enabled him to stay in Nascar for so long.

Snappy said the same thing I've been saying all along. There's people who will never get the opportunity who could destroy them on a weekly basis. Take Erik Jones and William Byron for example, what if they never got discovered? They've shown it can be done if given the opportunity.

Nascar is an odd sport unlike others, the "scrubs" I refer to are like the practice squad players on an NFL team. Good enough to be associated with the sport, but not necessarily good enough to beat out guys off the street who have more talent.

 

[lolla79]

Appearances can be deceiving. I know far more about this subject matter than you do.

So far you haven't said anything to make me (or anyone else) believe that statement. Start backing yourself up with facts instead of spitting out bland statements any 5 year old could come up with.

 

[Jorge De Guzman]

to p

Again I agree to disagree. You can't tell me that John Wes Townley was in the truck series because of his talent. Daddy owned Zaxby's and said "do something with your life." Similar situation with Paul Menard, but even I'll agree that Paul has some talent that has enabled him to stay in Nascar for so long.

Snappy said the same thing I've been saying all along. There's people who will never get the opportunity who could destroy them on a weekly basis. Take Erik Jones and William Byron for example, what if they never got discovered? They've shown it can be done if given the opportunity.

Nascar is an odd sport unlike others, the "scrubs" I refer to are like the practice squad players on an NFL team. Good enough to be associated with the sport, but not necessarily good enough to beat out guys off the street who have more talent.

to piggy back off this a guy like John Wes Townely compare it to the situation of a guy thats a high school drop out, from the boonies of NC but could wheel it a local short track ( maybe a guy like Dale Earnhardt??) You think that driver from NC would get first opportunity over someone like Towney? I would think not.

 

[mdh1776]

Again I agree to disagree. You can't tell me that John Wes Townley was in the truck series because of his talent. Daddy owned Zaxby's and said "do something with your life." Similar situation with Paul Menard, but even I'll agree that Paul has some talent that has enabled him to stay in Nascar for so long.

Snappy said the same thing I've been saying all along. There's people who will never get the opportunity who could destroy them on a weekly basis. Take Erik Jones and William Byron for example, what if they never got discovered? They've shown it can be done if given the opportunity.

Nascar is an odd sport unlike others, the "scrubs" I refer to are like the practice squad players on an NFL team. Good enough to be associated with the sport, but not necessarily good enough to beat out guys off the street who have more talent.

Oh of course, you're going to have a few that have no business being there. But a lot of these guys that don't make it were at one time at an elite level on a local level. I'm sure there are hundreds of people on a local level that would absolutely tear it up if they could only get a chance to prove themselves.

 

[Jorge De Guzman]

Oh of course, you're going to have a few that have no business being there. But a lot of these guys that don't make it were at one time at an elite level on a local level. I'm sure there are hundreds of people on a local level that would absolutely tear it up if they could only get a chance to prove themselves.

Oh sure I would agree with that. Like that dirt tracker in Indiana I was reading about, Bobby Pierce that kid can wheel it. I'd put him in a Truck if I could.

 

[aunty dive]

... the "scrubs" I refer to are like the practice squad players on an NFL team. Good enough to be associated with the sport, but not necessarily good enough to beat out guys off the street who have more talent.

200 mph scrubs in the back half of the top 3 professional race series in North America.

Every single one of them were guys off the street at some point ... the very few who by hook or by crook found a way to compete. I respect everyone who gets there, no matter how, and races at 200 in traffic. You can diss them and call them whatever derogatory names you like. You couldn't do it and neither could most others.

I have 20 years and 400 plus highly competitive short track races in the experience tank. I know what it takes physically, mentally and psychologically ... most of it can be found in the links I posted that you didn't even read.

 

[Jorge De Guzman]

200 mph scrubs in the back half of the top 3 professional race series in North America.

Every single one of them were guys off the street at some point ... the very few who by hook or by crook found a way to compete. I respect everyone who gets there, no matter how, and races at 200 in traffic. You can diss them and call them whatever derogatory names you like. You couldn't do it and neither could most others.

I have 20 years and 400 plus highly competitive short track races in the experience tank. I know what it takes physically, mentally and psychologically ... most of it can be found in the links I posted that you didn't even read.

Yup. I respect those who find a way to get to the dance.

 

[lolla79]

200 mph scrubs in the back half of the top 3 professional race series in North America.

Every single one of them were guys off the street at some point ... the very few who by hook or by crook found a way to compete. I respect everyone who gets there, no matter how, and races at 200 in traffic. You can diss them and call them whatever derogatory names you like. You couldn't do it and neither could most others.

I have 20 years and 400 plus highly competitive short track races in the experience tank. I know what it takes physically, mentally and psychologically ... most of it can be found in the links I posted that you didn't even read.

Like I said before, you can't just say "Everyone in Nascar is better than everyone who isn't." Some people never get opportunities that others get. You hear drivers say this all the time. Who's to say you don't just suck at driving yourself? It's honestly not meant to be a knock at you, but your argument is heavily flawed.

You're saying that just because in YOUR experience you find something almost impossible, it will be impossible for everyone else too. While I don't claim myself or anyone else could be Jimmie Johnson, if given the same amount of time to drive a car as some of these guys have, there's no doubt that SOMEONE would do better. You can be good at anything if you put in the time.

You're "respecting" everyone based off their authority as a Nascar driver, and if you do that throughout life, you'll get nowhere.

Also not to burst your bubble, Nascar has only ONE of the "top 3 professional race series" in North America. There's things other than stock cars, unno? Out of all guys I'd be talking to, I would think you'd be the one to know that.

 

[aunty dive]

Like I said before, you can't just say "Everyone in Nascar is better than everyone who isn't." Some people never get opportunities that others get. You hear drivers say this all the time. Who's to say you don't just suck at driving yourself? It's honestly not meant to be a knock at you, but your argument is heavily flawed.

You're saying that just because in YOUR experience you find something almost impossible, it will be impossible for everyone else too. While I don't claim myself or anyone else could be Jimmie Johnson, if given the same amount of time to drive a car as some of these guys have, there's no doubt that SOMEONE would do better. You can be good at anything if you put in the time.

You're "respecting" everyone based off their authority as a Nascar driver, and if you do that throughout life, you'll get nowhere.

Also not to burst your bubble, Nascar has only ONE of the "top 3 professional race series" in North America. There's things other than stock cars, unno? Out of all guys I'd be talking to, I would think you'd be the one to know that.

I can say whatever I like. Rather like you do.

I respect people who are able to race in traffic at 200 mph in traffic ... NASCAR or otherwise. None of them are scrubs. Whether you like it or not, or understand it, doing so results from a unique combination of physiological make-up augmented by training, mental acuity and a combination of psychological characteristics enables these people. No matter how badly one might want to be a Chess Master, it's a rare individual that achieves that status.

There's really no need for you to advise me as to how to get through life ... so far, I've done all right.

I'm aware of all forms of motorsport here and elsewhere. Indy Car, with its 21 car fields and much shorter race season, has only recently produced TV ratings comparable to the Truck Series. Formula 1 appears twice a year in North America and its worlde-wide broadcasts are a similar blip on summaries of weekend sporting events.

 

[NASCAR Apologist]

Nascar is much different than stick and ball in that you can buy a spot in the game in Nascar and line up on the grid. Obviously that is not possible in stick and ball as positions are doled out on merit only.

Only the best of the best get into NASCAR.

 

[lolla79]

I can say whatever I like. Rather like you do.

I respect people who are able to race in traffic at 200 mph in traffic ... NASCAR or otherwise. None of them are scrubs. Whether you like it or not, or understand it, doing so results from a unique combination of physiological make-up augmented by training, mental acuity and a combination of psychological characteristics enables these people. No matter how badly one might want to be a Chess Master, it's a rare individual that achieves that status.

There's really no need for you to advise me as to how to get through life ... so far, I've done all right.

I'm aware of all forms of motorsport here and elsewhere. Indy Car, with its 21 car fields and much shorter race season, has only recently produced TV ratings comparable to the Truck Series. Formula 1 appears twice a year in North America and its worlde-wide broadcasts are a similar blip on summaries of weekend sporting events.

Considering Formula 1 is based out of Europe, I'd generally not expect it to be a top 3 series in North America. On the contrary, Indycar will always be considered a tier above Xfinity and trucks.

I think you're confusing being good with being great. As I've probably said 1,000 times now, I never said anyone can achieve the "master" status. You treat it like you're either at full mastery level, or nothing at all. That's simply just not the case. This stuff about physiological make-up (which is quite ridiculous in this context btw) does not apply to lower tier drivers. However, I will agree that there's definitely something "special" required to reach mastery, which IS in fact rare for the average individual to achieve. I just think you're over solidifying the necessities to be an average to below-average driver when it isn't needed.

Additionally, I was not intending to give you life advice. It was a general principle that I think applies to everyone. I apologize if it sounded like I was coming off that way.

 

[aunty dive]

This stuff about physiological make-up (which is quite ridiculous in this context btw) does not apply to lower tier drivers.

Speaks to your lack of knowledge.

Science isn't always easily understood.

 

[lolla79]

Speaks to your lack of knowledge.

Science isn't always easily understood.

Science doesn't drive the race car.

 

[TexasRaceLady]

This arguing has gone on long enough. It has completely disrupted the original topic of the Silly Season.
If you wish to continue, either take it Private or take it to The Podium, and let the rest of us continue ON TOPIC. There, you can continue to insult each other to your heart's desire.

If either of you needs access to The Podium, I'll be more than happy to give it to you.